Try to remember: The dilemma is a human one
Print Friendly Version| From Where I Stand by Joan Chittister, OSB | January 15, 2007 |
| Vol. 4, No. 31 |
Life is made up of hard decisions, some harder than others, they tell us. U.S. involvement in Iraq is one of those -- and it is getting harder by the day.
The mid-term elections of November, 2006, unclear on some issues, perhaps, were amazingly clear on another. The United States, voters told interviewers, is on the wrong course.
They wanted change. But wanting change and changing are two different things. The question now is how we'll change course. And to what?
That is no small problem.
That the country has become ever more impatient and intolerant of the U.S. invasion and drawn-out presence in Iraq is clear.
That we know how to stop it is not.
One option advised for Iraq by those who believe that military victory is both possible and necessary is, of course, simply to go on going on. It's a business-as-usual solution. But military forces find themselves in a situation where the security of Iraq, instead of getting better as time goes by, gets worse from news cycle to news cycle.
The problem with going on as usual is that it is not only a failed attempt at a solution -- surges have been tried before -- it is also part of the problem. As long as U.S. troops stay in Iraq where many do not want them, the Iraqis will never be safe.
A second option proposed to resolve the Iraqi situation is to simply cut our losses and get out. After all, thousands of U.S. soldiers have already been wounded or permanently disabled. But after five years of escalating failure in a contest once described as "a slam dunk", this proposal becomes a two-edged sword.
First, when those who oppose the war suggest pulling out, it's called a "cut and run" policy. Cowardly, in other words. Treasonous, even.
On the other hand, when those who believe in the war talk about leaving, it smacks of the worst kind of spin. They put a good face on a bad thing. They aren't leaving, they say, because we failed in what we should not have done in the first place. They say they're only leaving because we've already won. "We liberated Iraq," they argue. This war now, they point out, is "a civil war." meaning not "our war." A war we have had absolutely no hand in creating.
Oh, please.
Who, if not we, went into Iraq sure that all we had to do was to strike the wicked king with our magic wand and the world would be just as it should be.
Who left the whole country of Iraq in disarray, 52,000 civilians dead -- as many as 500,000, the Lancet report says -- its infrastructure broken, and our own country billions of dollars poorer for the doing of it, if not we?
Who created the circumstances that unleashed what may well have been an ages-old incipient civil war, if not we?
So now a third option: Send more U.S. troops to do what we have not achieved so far and send money with them to supply more weapons and, oh yes, with what's left over to rebuild what we've already broken.
This option presumes that a military solution -- if at all possible -- is the real solution to the situation in Iraq. This option exposes our ongoing unwillingness to cooperate with the rest of the Muslim world, as the Iraq Study Group recommends, in bringing stability to a major country in the Middle East.
So, the questions now are even more exasperating. Have we really changed course? Is the presence of more U.S. troops the solution or does the sight of them only fuel the problem? And if we simply leave the country to the mercy of its own competing forces will, as the scripture says, "The last error will be worse than the first?" Having eliminated one kind of demon will a thousand more simply rush in to take its place? If we leave now, do we then set the scene for an internal bloodbath of recrimination and vengeance?
Or to put it another way: If going in was immoral, is it possible that leaving now is just as immoral?
The new danger is that we may now be more mired in defending our own unwillingness to admit we were wrong -- dead wrong -- than in doing what's best for Iraq. We may not be nearly so determined to resurrect Iraq as we are to bury our own errors under a patina of false victory.
And, worst of all, how long will it take us to decide any of these things?
While the gears of the political world grind exceeding slow, the military mistakes multiply. More babies die, more civilians flee, more homes are destroyed, the economy crumbles, the innocent stand caught between forces not of their own making. And the world stands back and watches in judgment as one United States becomes another in their minds.
All the time we dither with purely military answers to human questions, mail continues to pour in from the people who cannot wait much longer. A woman director of a national aid group stays in touch. I am reproducing her letter in its original form: She writes:
Iraq and Iraqis were victimized. They were victimized by the successive dictatorships, poor leadership, interfered with for our OIL throughout history.
Still what is going on nowadays is far from being just victimized or a blood shed. It is a complete killing not of life only but the simple existence even! The political and strategic agenda of the whole Middle East is being formulated upon Iraqis bodies and future....everybody is fighting everybody in Iraq. … Killing is increasing on a daily basis. Iraq is losing its people not because of the sectarian violence and killing only but because of the huge brain drain which sucked a major portion of the middle and intellectual class within our society. Iraq is the country that is bleeding people fleeing their fancy houses to be refugees in other countries … so we are bleeding with dead bodies in Baghdad's streets and refugee families!
Who will remain to get life back to Mesopotamia? ... That is the question?!
It's time for politicians to read the mail. For the people's sake, we must end this. We must do something more than send more military to solve what will forever be a political problem.
From where I stand, it looks to me as if it's time for politicians to stop escalating war and solve the human and political problems they created for all of us.
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Two books that are well
Two books that are well worth the read as it pertains to the gangster Mob that was created with the incestuous relationship between American government and the corporatacracy are:
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins
When Presidents Lie: A History of Official Deception and Its Consequences by Eric Alterman, Ph.D.
I'm sure many have read where ExxonMobil has spent $16 million on disinformation to discredit global warming. Let's see. What reason could an oil company making obscene and outrageous profits (and who paid their retiring CEO, Lee Raymond, $400,000,000 in his retirement package) have for discrediting global warming? Hhmmm. Might it be that if everyone in America were to find out the truth about the potential extinction of 1/2 of all life species on the planet Earth by 2100 that people would take their investments out of oil companies and invest in alternative fuels?
http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html
That Americans would be screaming for their congressional members to pass legislation to force alternative fuels?
Oh my, where would that leave oil companies and their avaricious executives? Worse yet, what would happen to the American economy which is held together by the tenous bubble of the housing market and is becoming ever more vulnerable to the decreasing value of the dollar as the eurocurrent increases in popularity? My friends, America has 5% of the world's population and we are responsible for 25% of carbon emmissions on the planet. If every person on the planet consumed as much as Americans, it would take FOUR more planets to sustain that gargantuan appetite for consumption and waste.
My point? We all play a role in this although, to be sure and certain, the Bush debacle is the worst foreign policy greed grab in the history of this country and, as far as I'm concerned, the egregious lies and deception, along with the outrageous decimation of civil liberties, constitutes impeachment if I've ever seen it. Bill Clinton's appetite for extramarital escapades pales in comparison to this as does Nixon's pathological mendacity. At least in these 2 cases, the entire species of the planet was not hanging in the balance based on their ill deeds.
America is about to experience the most serious affront to its prosperity and way of life due to the serious measures and sacrifices we are all going to be forced to make just so we can survive as a species. Collective survival is going to demand collective efforts including tremendous decreases in consumption.
If Gore had been elected in 2000, America would now have 6 years of efforts in curbing global warming. With Bush, he has squandered this precious time and, for that and the Iraq debacle, he will be villified in the history books. His actions are analogous to a ship captain and his cronies scrambling to grab the treasure chests of gold on a ship that is sinking and intentionally not informing the ship's passengers that the ship is leaking so they could collectively develop strategies to prevent its demise.
If you read the 2 books mentioned above, you'll understand Sister Joan's commentaries disparaging American foreign policy.
Jaime Not certain of what
Jaime
Not certain of what good is done by this exercise. Those of us who side with Sr Joan are diametrically opposite those who don't. Punto y Finito
9-11
Weapons of Mass Distruction,
Threat to America,
Condition yellow,red,Green,$$$ Patriot Act,$$$
Secure the Borders $$$$
Dept. of Home Security $$$$
Reorganisation of Intelligence Agencies $$$
Threat, Threat,Threat. (The terrorists are coming the terrorists are coming!!!!!!)
Saddam Hussein (now expired). His death really changed things?????
Operation Iraqi Forward $$$
Operation Together Forward $$$
Operation Together Forward II $$$
The New Way Forward (surge)$$$
Resolve,Dicider, Stay the Course,Honor, Patriot
Support the Troops (Faulty armor and all)
Mission Accomplished!!!!???????
Photo Ops with the Worriors. (real people)
More than 3000 of our young people.
375 Trillion. (don't even know how many zeros)
Over 35,000 Iraqi civilians (men, women, children dead in 2006 alone.
Corruption
Do Nothing Congress
Contradictions
Half Truths/Outright falsehoods
Torture
Guantanamo
Abu Grab (??)
The above chart of performances???? You judge 'um. And all accomplished with a team of Compassionate Christians......As Pogo put it eloquently sometime ago "We've found the enemy and they are us)
Sr. Joan give 'um hell. You are the one that is truely Spirit-Fed
Oh! Oh My!! O My God!!!
Chittister is led by her
Chittister is led by her politics. I find the insinuation of your comment appalling. I make no comment on Chittister's spiritual life -- only her politics. I suggest you not demean me spiritually simply because you don't agree with my politics. What you said I find in no way Spirit-derived.
Please, don't take the Name
Please, don't take the Name of the Lord in vain, it deeply offends me when people do so, particularly when claiming moral superority.
There are times when "Oh my
There are times when "Oh my God!" is something of half-exclamation and half-prayer, and war and horrors and child abuse and covering up child abuse etc., are some of them...
...yet I appreciate the reminder. I've worked hard to get it back out of my language since it has become so insinuated in our daily talk in this country. I feel better without it. And I cringe when I hear it thrown around every few minutes everywhere I go. And yes, I know that I'm getting off topic...
Oh puleeze! Don't stand on
Oh puleeze! Don't stand on ceremony! Saying "Oh my God" is what people say when they witness horror. It may not be YOUR prayer, but it may be THEIR prayer...How would YOU know? Wasn't Christ Himself accused of "blasphemy" by the Pharisees before He was crucified? I do believe it was one of their charges against Him. As usual, you are mighty quick to judge!
I am pressing no charges,
I am pressing no charges, just making a request (one that I made frequently at work, an no longer have to make).
It appears not as a prayer, but just as an exclamation. The frequency that people take the Name of God in vain is not an excuse to do so.
HT, No offense, but the
HT,
No offense, but the writer of the piece to which you objected had just detailed a list of true horrors. In my opinion your comment on this occasion was misplaced, and in my opinion, even a bit obscene, when considering the context of what our writer had to say.
The writer mentioned INHUMAN and EVIL Things---9-11, nukes, (WMD)--have these terms become so "everyday" to us that we have forgotten the real pain and anguish they cause to our fellows and other innocents? Killing and torture of other humans (he mentions Guantanamo and Abu Guraib, where, to our military's own disgrace--and I, as a member of a military family, feel even miore shamed and disgraced, as many families and professional military do, to think that relatively "innocent" humans (picked up carelessly and unknowing on battlefields where they, as civilian volunteers, hardly knew what they were doing, in some cases---or sometimes just taxidrivers on their way to work outside some base in other cases--not that some are not genuine POWS or terrorists, in which case they should be treated as such) have been tortured by OUR GOVERNMENT/OUR MILITARY---NO IT IS UNACCEPTABLE. RENDITION IS UNACCEPTABLE, AND UNNECCESSARY.
Is this STILL "the home of the free? the land of the brave?" Wartime is NOT "peacetime", it's true.
And then the writer comes to the heart of the matter, which unfortunately muddies the waters for many of us Americans---he mentions Corruption and Over and Over he places $$$$$ dollar signs, saying, "This (Iraq) was NOT done for "freedom"; it was done for MONEY" And he also mentions the DEATHS of over 3000 of our young people (in Iraq only.)
He doesn't mention the deaths of the Iraq citizens in the hundreds of thousands--but that is implied... The shame upon our Country caused by this corrupt War. At least previously we have had a rationale for going to War in Afghanistan, but in Iraq? None.
And then this person (the writer) of splendid knowledge and conscience says:
Oh. Oh my. Oh my God. I really think that is correctly within context.
Of course HT's comment was
Of course HT's comment was obscene. He dared defend the name of *shudder* ^Him^. How can we remake the world in our own image if we have respect for *shudder* ^Him^ or ^His^ Commands? We must overcome such obstacles as reality and revelation. We make the world as we see it. WE ARE GODS!!!
from the underdesk of Gone Tomorrow.
Shootingstar, I would
Shootingstar, I would suggest it is you who forgets 9-11 and the evil and inhumanity of Saddam. All those deaths, I wonder how you attribute all of them to us. Are there not insurgents killing other Iraqi, militia killing insurgents that undermine possibilities for peace? Before that, when Saddam was in power, he killed indiscriminately. Wonder of wonders, these are all our fault!!! What a treasure you are, Shootingstar. Your logic astounds me. Yes, it is a travesty that so many die, but in true liberal fashion you absolve those who commit these murders to blame the US. You are indeed a kindred spirit with Chittister.
"What a treasure you are,
"What a treasure you are, Shootingstar." Isn't that a personal attack? And sarcasm? "Your logic astounds me."
Have you lived in a military Family? Have you ever served in combat or waited for a loved one's return? As a child? have you lived on bases and watched friends die one by one? I believe you once said you had a brother or some relative serving in Iraq...Is that true?
Did he tell you of the horrible food served by Halliburton? "An Army travels on it's stomach" but instead, in this particular war, the rules were changed so there could be civilian contractors and civilian corporations could make money on the side.
Cheney and others are profiting off our fighting men and women while depriving them of good food, armor and materiel (proper spelling) they need.
Have you heard about the Raytheon Scandal, where a needed armored and tested vehicle was denied our troops so a Raytheon Contract (years away) could be awarded instead? 134 men and women have died as a result, and probably many more have been wounded. But you do not care about such matters. You would rather dwell in Bush's "fiction" that Saddam was "responsible" for 9-11, call well-meaning and knowledgeable people names and keep the Bush propaganda machine going--because that is what you are doing, at the expense of young lives! Where have you been? Everyone knows that was a lie, and it has been documented that George Bush ignored the 9-11 terrorist warnings from Day One because he was "focused" on Iraq because of some "Need", perhaps, to "outdo" his Father. many books have been written about this, about the origins of this War (see Clark, Zinni, Gordon&Trainor,) and about Bush himself and his motivations (Kelley, Frank, etc.) Perhaps you don't care for my sources, but Woodward is quite authoritative. And I watch all kinds of news programs (even those I don't agree with) every day.
And for Bush's questionable motives, more people have to die? Thousands and thousands? And we lose Afghanistan (where there was already organized "freedom fighter resistance" to the opressive and Al Queda Taliban (where the Trade Center bombing was planned) again.
It is said that we are "losing focus" there while our military is caught in a Civil War in Iraq along with the poor Iraqi people, 70% of whom risked all to vote for a Democracy. The Iranians and the Syrians have a part in this insurgency as well as the long-repressed Shiites, who suffered terribly under Saddam. But one doesn't go after every Dictator in the World. Bush 1 understood this and wisely limited his involvement in that mess, understanding it would lead to Civil War.
You, who voted for a man who had barely been outside the US, thought he could "listen to a Higher Being" etc., according to Bob Woodward, (i.e. might have been delusional) have to understand what you unleashed when you voted for a person who barely understood, or previously had shown very little interest in, World Affairs, outside of Mexico. And this is the result we get. Our Constitution has been violated, (not for the first time) we are in a War that never should have been fought, hundreds of thousands of innocents are dead on his watch, in the wrong War in the wrong place at certain the wrong time (is there ever a right time?), while the right place is neglected.
Our Country is disrespected as never before. Our Budget is in tatters, and the poor suffer while the wealthy get tax breaks and make money hand over fist. I happen to be in a position to see both ends.
God bless you, Spiritfed; have a nice day in the warmth and security of your freedom where you have every right to verbally abuse others!
Isn't it wonderful to live in a Country where others have paid for such rights with their very blood!
Prayer For Those Living In A
Prayer For Those Living In A Time of Discord
Dearest God,
Deliver us from evil!
Deliver us from those who worry about small things when Great Evil is present in Our Land.
Deliver us from those who are blind, not in their eyes, but in their hearts.
Deliver us from indifference when families are suffering the deaths of their beloved daughters and sons.
Oh-my-God we know that being human, we are not exempt from suffering.
We know that being human and lovers,
Lovers of wives and husbands,
Lovers of girlfriends and boyfriends,
Lovers of wonderful and precious friends of all kinds,
Lovers of our children whom we cherish
Lovers of our Parents when we are small,
Dependent upon them for trust,love and to have their presence near,
Lovers of beauty,of sky and fields and mountains, rivers and oceans
And Your Spaces Great and so hidden and precious to us
Where You Alone Speak to Us. Thanks, Lord, for All of This.
Special Communities of Friends and then your other creatures.
How grateful we are for all of this! How can we risk Your Peace?
But we are not exempt from loss, ALL of us, have so much to lose!
Especially the children, Dear Lord.
Be it from illness, or accident, or most terrible, from the Uncertainties and nightmares and terrors of War.
Deliver All of Us from the Worst of These, Dear God, especially Those caused by the venalities, vanities and greed of ourselves
Help us support our Sisters and Brothers to make it easier for them.
Help us work towards the end of War and Oppression and the Coming of A Just Peace.
Bring Us a Sense of Happiness for Your Many Gifts in the Present Moment.
Comfort us, Dearest Creator, until You see fit to deliver us from Little joys and little irritations, the pettiness and sadness of This World,
Into the Love of Your Holy Presence.
Amen
One day, Joseph was working
One day, Joseph was working in his carpentry shop. He reared back to give a nail a good wack and, missing the nail, hit his thumb. I minute later Jesus entered and said, "You called?"
Spiritfed, I am interested
Spiritfed,
I am interested in your concept of conversion. Please explain. I am completely lost as to what you mean.
Ricky
Conversion would mean take
Conversion would mean take up following Christ.
Sr. Joan's questions
Sr. Joan's questions certainly stir the kettle of questions I've had brewing for quite some time. Now that we've blundered into Iraq uninvited and unprovoked, how do we get out? If we stay, we only stand to keep an unnamed battle going. Unnamed as in "The Battle for What?" Perhaps "The Battle for Oil", "The Battle for Pride", or "The Battle for Power"? And while the tanks keep rolling in and the guns keep firing, the smell of death keeps rising from the ground into a heaven which is calling down "Peace on Earth."
I don't know of a time in modern history when a United States president has used the executive powers of government to instigate such an evil war as this war. Now he speaks casually of 'getting the job done' as if we're mowing the grass or putting in a new fencepost. "The dilemma", Sr. Joan reminds us, "is a human one." I believe that our mission to Iraq must change courses at this point and become a humanitarian one. Our military presence there only serves to bring about more ruin and more senseless killing. I think that we should leave Iraq so that its' people can develop what will be their own nation, not one built on the ideals of an imposing allied force. Who the ruling party will be should depend on the thinking minds of Iraq's own people, and we should bind ourselves to honor that outcome. I think that by leaving we would, indeed, be choosing the lesser of two evils. We have already unleashed the evil of war in that country and have kept it going already far too long.
jayne
When the Police enter to
When the Police enter to settle a Domestic Dispute here in America, they have well thought out policies in the the hands of well trained professionals that are thoroughly backed and supported by the rest of the Community. Even then it is still the most challenging and sometimes dangerous sort of engagement. Our initiative in Iraq is innocent of any serious effort to apply this model. If anything, it is marked by a brazen and arrogant presumption enforced by ignorant obstinacy.
We took no initiative to really understand the Vietnamese people either.
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
You know, there are
You know, there are forty-eight States in these United States, and thousands and thousands of municipalities, each with different police forces, so for once, L2L, I have to disagree with you. Although there are general domestic violence guidelines, and States have certain Domestic Violence Laws. Still, in each given community, the quality of the police (sometimes down to each individual team of police, regardless of laws and guidelines) has a lot more to do with the quality of each Domestic Violence Intervention than does any Law or even the theoretical "support" of the Community. Haven't you ever sent your child (or heard about a neice or nephew sent to) an "excellent" school who ended up with a troublesome teacher, who had a "rep" in that school?
So it can be with "Interventions" anywhere. So much depends on the situation, as well as the "quality" of the Interventionist, be it a team, a couple of officers, an individual, or an entire Country or Foreign Service Apparatus. There are great Foreign Service officers, who carefully study other Countries for years. There are excellent CIA officers, too.
But if idiots get into Power, it all depends on whom they choose to listen. Unfortunately, with Iraq, the people who were "listened to" proved to be entirely unreliable, biased, or completely untruthful, and it is a GIGO (garbage-in-garbage-out) situation, and that was known ahead of time, but the information was (criminally and IMO, impeachably) not passed along, because that did not suit the "agenda" of those who had (it was later proven) also wrongly (and impeachably) perverted the electoral process and overturned the Will of the People.
So it isn't that we don't have good scholars. That is an overgeneralization, just like the first point about "every domestic violence interevntion" being a good one. (Depends on the location and the officers.) Sometimes even our good scholars can overgeneralize.
anne: that would be 50
anne: that would be 50 states. . . .
Well, Steve McGarrett of
Well, Steve McGarrett of Hawaii 5-0 has regularly demonstrated to me that Human Relations and Law Enforcement can be married excellently in a professional execution of duty !
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
Oh, it was Steve, now, who
Oh, it was Steve, now, who told you? Back on Hawaii 5-0, was it, then? Well, now, me boy, I stand properly corrected! :)
I agree. I think we jumped
I agree. I think we jumped right into this war, with what Sr. Joan metaphors as a "magic wand". It was not well thought out, and our government used tunnel vision when it breached faith with France and Russia and went to Iraq anyway. That will be a whole other discussion someday. How will we temper the new cold war we have begun with those nations? After all, by now, in all appearances, they were right. Just think about how silly and childish it was that so many refused to call french fries "french". After all, even that is a name of our own making, not that of the French.
Oh well, there's just so much to this mess. Praying for peace is important.
jayne
JT "...breached faith with
JT
"...breached faith with France and Russia...", are you kidding me? Talk to Colin Powell and ask him what he thinks about Dominique de Villepin. France and Russia are not your allies. The French seek to puff up their own grandeur and the Russians are working to rebuild their own empire.
By the way, French toast used to be called German toast.
I agree. To watch Bush
I agree. To watch Bush fawning over Putin and saying he "could look deep into his soul" was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. This is the same man (Putin who is now supporting Iran in selling them "defensive" missiles and helping them build a nuclear power plant. Why? We would not lend money to Russia to help their faltering economy, and Russia needs to get money from somewhere. This Iranian deal (Iran has plenty of money due to oil--"follow the money") will net the Russians billions. Meanwhile we continue to pour our blood and treasure into Iraq, costing Iraqi and American lives. As to the French, they learned long ago, with their own costly expeditions and their horrible War in Algeria not to get involved in such madness. Don't forget that they surrendered Dien Bien Phu juwst before we entered our own long, costly War in Viet Nam. The French have already made our mistakes and have lost their feeling for this kind of expeditionism. They have tried colonizing and seen how disastrous it is and how little appetite other countries have for being occupied, in the long run. I happened to be in Paris during part of the War with Algeria. Bombs went off all the time. It was uneasy never to know if one would go off, but one learned to live with the uncertainty.
It is a very hard slog to "export democracy", not that most European Countries tried very hard. Their object was to "make money".
But "exporting democracy" is, in a way, the ultimate form of National Codependence. It's worked some places, quite well, when people were prepared for it. It's totally understandable that George W. Bush would have some kind of dull grandiosity to join the scheme to try. Read his life story from childhood on. Then read Bush 1's life story. I'm amazed that Daddy Bush stopped, with his history, but he had a lot more good people around him, it seems, plus more smarts and foreign policy experience.
There is probably quite a
There is probably quite a bit of competition for "most disgusting" statements. Did I not see recently where he said that God told him to invade Iraq?
JT Was that a direct quote,
JT
Was that a direct quote, or, was it something that somebody said he said?
JT~Found it. It is a BBC
JT~Found it. It is a BBC press release (www.bbc.co.uk) dated 06.10.2005. The attribution is to the Palestinian Prime Minister. He reports on a meeting with Pres.Bush.
"Pres Bush said to all of us "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me,"George go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan". And I did and God would tell me,"George go and end the tyrrany in Iraq...". And I did. Etc. There was also reference to God telling him to get a state for Palestinians.
JT~ Went searching for the
JT~ Went searching for the reference and can't come up with it sorry. There was a bit more to it I recall than you noted Frannie. Maybe it was another instance but he was reported to have asked God and God told him, etc. There was also reference to another item that God told him. I shouldn't state these without having the reference right at hand or even to include it.
Published on Friday,
Published on Friday, October 7, 2005 by The Independent
Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President 'revealed reasons for war in private meeting'
by Rupert Cornwell
President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.
George Bush believes he is on a mission from God, according to the politician Nabil Shaath.
The President made the assertion during his first meeting with Palestinian leaders in June 2003, according to a BBC series which will be broadcast this month.
He was asked by a reporter
He was asked by a reporter if he had consulted with his father before the invasion. He said he had consulted his Higher Father.
Frannie, I find it very
Frannie, I find it very disagreeable that you find something wrong with Bush going to prayer to make such a decision -- a statement that in no way says 'God told him to go to war'.
The BBC thing has already been shown fraudulent as well as denied. This, frankly, is old stuff, and the BBC was way out of line in suggesting these phony statements. Bush has NEVER claimed God told him to go to war with anyone. He has explicitly and often said he has done so because to not have would have been a failure to his oath as president to defend our nation against dangers coalescing against us.
Whatever the case, the status of this is really outrageous speculation. I think those that are contending this should take this into account. You are engaging in very outrageous speculation. Glad to hear that's the standard of discussion here. After all, I can make up things just as easily as the BBC (likely with far more credibility than the BBC can profess to).
Bob Woodward, 60minutes
Bob Woodward, 60minutes interview, 4/18/2004.
Apparently, anything short
Apparently, anything short of a debilitating bolt of lightning can be taken as an affirmation.
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
Obviously anything short of
Obviously anything short of your debilitation has convinced you this absurb banter is true.
Watch for the weather
Watch for the weather report.
I wonder if the experiences
I wonder if the experiences of Saul of Tarsus and Martin Luther inspired the idea of , ' Shock and Awe ' ?
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
No, Kuwait inspired the
No, Kuwait inspired the "shock and awe" but unfortunately for BushII no Iraqui's raised their arms and surrendered as happened in Kuwait. When the Iraqui regiments were cornered in Bahgdad they all left via the unsecured Northwest section of Baghad. We're still paying the price for our Turkish ally refusing to let the 4th Infantry division attack from the North. Bush went ahead with the invasion anyway.
Granted, but is the
Granted, but is the Calvinist character predisposed to view the conversion impetus in these dramatic terms ?
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
I wish I knew Luv2laf, but
I wish I knew Luv2laf, but we're talking about a politician who learned way before his professed conversations with God how to swing the Evangelical vote. If he truly thought God told him what he is reputed to have said he obviously didn't seek out legitimate discernment. Legitimate discernment doesn't come from hand picked advisors.
I keep going back to the interview I watched with Pat Roberts just after a visit with Bush. Roberts stated that he was having real issues with supporting the president because it seemed to him that the pres was mixing up his will with God's will. Coming from Roberts, this was the most scary thing I had ever heard from an 'independent' voice describing the mindset of our president.
Too bad the Democrats don't
Too bad the Democrats don't have a team as accomplished as the , ' Swift Boat ' , fellas. I could see Big Money Republicans rushing a boundary challenged front man into office by exploiting Bible Belt enthusiasm.
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
Who is Dominique Villepin,
Who is Dominique Villepin, and what about him? I'm really trying to learn new things.
jayne
JT I may have misspelled his
JT
I may have misspelled his name, but he was the French Ambassador to the UN during the lead up to the war. Colin Powell felt betrayed by him, ie, told one thing in private etc.. The French never had any intention to force Saddam to comply with the Security Council resolutions. It is widely believed that Saddam's recalcitrance had something to do with being assured by the French and others, that the UN would never take the next step, and that the pay offs through the "Food for Oil" program, made him believe that Iraq was safe. (The head of that program, Benon Sevan, has been indicted for taking bribes.) France and Russia were owed billions by Iraq, and didn't see their respective interests served in deposing Saddam.
Well, thank you, that clears
Well, thank you, that clears that up for me, at least on the political level. Do you think that on a human level we should just be mad at all of France because of what their government did? I still love the Impressionists and crepes and Blaise Pascale. "Le coeur as ses raisons, que le raison ne connait point." "The heart has its' reason, which reason knows nothing of." I just hope we don't end up stereotyping the whole of France and detesting its' people because of its' governments errors. In a way, I guess a lot of we Americans are hated in the same way for invading Iraq.
At some time in the course of the changes to come, there will be a need for reconciliation among nations. I fear to say I won't live to see it, but I hope our governments start to talk and lay some groundwork for that reconciliation. It will take a long, long time.
jayne
Childish is right ! But,
Childish is right ! But, shallow emotionalism is the chief dynamic at play here. Conservatives accused Martin Luther King Jr. of being a rabble rouser. He never resorted to cheap theatrics to gain an easy affirmation for action.
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
I'm sorry, but I don't
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what theatrics and emotionalism you speak of. What are you saying?
jayne
Petty derisions of people
Petty derisions of people like the French that cater to preconceived notions about character have nothing to do with elucidating the truth and everything to do with exploitation for temporal gain.
Dr. Martin Luther King's advocation of Non-Violent Protest stands in direct opposition to this sort of behavior.
If it pleases you, I would be more than happy to expand upon this topic.
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
Yes, Luv2Laf...speak on.
Yes, Luv2Laf...speak on. I'd like to hear more. I can see you have a good idea ready to spring up.
I must say that coming here to the cafe has been quite an experience. There's a lot of good people here and a lot of good ideas.
For me, though, it seems that many times the tone and agitation of the discussions do not add to world peace or human interaction.(not a personal note to you luv2Laf)
I hope that all you peacemakers who come here will be able to find good discussions and human interaction in the days to come. For me it is not peaceful and life giving right now. I am going to continue to read "From Where I Stand" and carry the light of that with me. And from that, the people I encounter will hear me say to them "Peace be with you."
Peace
jayne
In all fairness, I must
In all fairness, I must admit to being disciplined for verbal abuse on this site. Jesus himself didn't hesitate to call the Scribes and Pharisees a Generation of Vipers. He also called Peter a Satan for his transgressions. Passionate convictions demand assertive expression. We sit here casually bantering while 17 year olds are currently confronting the most horrible challenges to civilized behavior, in our stead. Justice is a prerequisite for Peace.
Hillary Clinton is very sure of her ability to take on her adversaries and hold her ground. She knows the Washington Republicans and how to deal with them. While this hashing out of differences can get very unnerving, the greatness of our land is based on getting results this way. Stubborn and misguided people still have a right of expression and must be dealt with. In the good fight, the greatest challenge is in self-possession. If you rise above the gutter you win, no matter what else happens, that is the enduring glory of the Saints. Richard M. Nixon writes in his book , ' The Real War ' , that if you hate your enemy, he has already prevailed in his quest. Abraham Lincoln has famously averred that if he were to make friends of his adversaries he would have successfully destroyed his enemy.
' Elmer Gantry ' , is one of my favorite movies of all time. Shirley Jones' character is a generous, open, and vulnerable person who is conned by a slick and ruthless opportunist. This metaphor is applied easily to the current situation in the USA.
Mark Twain has joyously claimed that , ' Southerners speak music ' . Dr. Martin Luther King stands out in his courageous integrity. He, like Mohandas Gandhi, refused to lower himself to the level of his opponents. Though the spectacular fireworks of his speeches bears a resemblance in kind to that of Elmer Gantry, the content of his character could not be more diametrically opposed.
Humans Grow In Virtue Not By Being Forced To Repeat Virtuous Actions But By Freely Choosing Such Actions
Jayne, you are honest,
Jayne, you are honest, courageous, and true. I think your valiant efforts against the blind and angry are wonderful! Your manner of expression is encouraging to me, and to many others, I think.
I know that the tedium that accompanies the relentless empty-drum diatribes of the blind-and-angry is hard to bear. PLEASE don't depart from this discussion on that account. But if you do decide to take a rest, rest in peace, my sister-in-Christ. I hope that you will be back soon, refreshed and keyed to a life of genuine discussion.
God's peace be with you.
The Rev. Dr. E. McCoy
"So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!" (2Cor 5)
Thank you Sr. Joan. I pray
Thank you Sr. Joan. I pray that you have the courage and strength to continue in your great works.