Letter-writing campaign to protest Bishop Bruskewitz's actions

And isn't it heartening, Malcolmr, to see the Freemasons being exposed again as a pernicious menace to Christian society? Many of us would have thought that this anti-Masonic crusade was a cause left in the Catholic past, along with the Fighting Sixty-Nine society and its pledges not to support condemned movies.

Bruskewitz's actions are a savory reminder that the church's keeps on fighting the important battles, over and over again, time and change be damned!

William D. Lindsey

What would Jesus think?

After reading the gospels, I think it would be something like this.

"I created One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church to speak with infallible authority while I'm gone. And instead of adhering to the See of Peter as the Rock of the Church as their guarantee of orthodoxy, they've decided to waste their time and divide the Church with heresy and schism. Falsely teaching that a woman's dignity has anything at all to do with her ability to become a priest or bishop, and telling the world that My setting of unique roles for each sex in the Kingdom is anything that can be questioned."

Or something like that. Where's the love? Where's the love for the Church he built? That evil, hierarchical that he gave infallible teaching authority to that has already stated that it does not have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood?

The gospels are quite clear. The church has authority, and a hierarchy of authority at that. Call to Action, and several other unorthodox "catholic" organizations (especially the pro-death abortionists and Rainbow sash folk) were suffered long enough before the excommunications. Although they were simply being reminded that they incurred excommunication by their actions, not some evil Bishop with nothing better to do.

If these people want to become Episcopalians, why don't they just join that church? They need the membership!

"Without them [Rome], no dogma discussed in the Church, even sanctioned by the canons & ecclesiastical usages, can be considered to be approved or abrogated" – Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople

Where did your Catholic Education leave off? At fourth grade? Or seventh? Don't you know anything about the Bible that Pope Pius XII gave Catholics "permission" to study through archeology and form criticism? Apparently not. the Gospels were written years after the death of Jesus, and each Gospel writer had a different point to make. Anyone who went to a decent Catholic High School knows this...let alone a College! The "quotes" in your paragraphs are NOT in the Gospels!

AND, by the way, JB Mendez, a substantive minority of us "real" Catholics have done just that. We are so DISGUSTED at the behavior of our beloved Church and the BETRAYAL of Her VALUES, and CHRIST'S VALUES (as taught in the GOSPELS) that we have joined another Church, more demonstrative of TRUE CATHOLIC values.

Bob,

Does the Holy Magisterium speak on behalf of Christ our Lord? Are we not to obey the Holy Magisterium when it speaks definitively about CTA? In loving this command shouldn't CTA members relinquish their hold on false teaching and ideas?

You say, "He asked that, in return, we love one another. That is what being a disciple of his is all about. He went out of his way to try to teach us that this love is to be extended, not just to our firends and those who look and feel as we do, but to all. To all!"

Love also involves being obedient to those that our Lord places over us. As followers of Christ we will also be called to follow Jesus the Lord as St. Peter did, i.e., a cord will be tied around us and we'll be led to a place were we would rather not go. In this regard, CTA members are being asked to go the land of obedience. How much they love as faithful catholic now remains to be seen.

If CTA members simply accept what Christ is asking of them through His Holy Magisterium, they will not only find peace, but be able to identify with our Lord when "He learned obedience thru suffering." In this way, they will become more humble. I submit that nobody is pushing CTA away; In fact, in this excommunication, they have placed themselves outside of what Christ ask us to hold dear to our hearts, as we daily walk with Him in the prayer, "not my will but thy will be done, O Lord." Our Lord's Holy Magisterium has pointed out the error of their thinking; hopefully they will choose to see the Light and not remain in darkness. This will be evidence of their love for us who obey Christ teachings and commandments of discipleship. I hope and sincerely pray that they do come back and are once again in solidarity with us as fellow Catholic pilgrims here on earth.

I believe you err when you ask how we can push away those that Christ died for? In fact our Blessed Lord has chastened them because He loves them! Our Lord pointing out their error is a true sign of His patient love. This chastening is no different than with a parent correcting his/her child who is reaching to touch the enticing flame on the stove. Well, Our Beloved Lord, through His Holy Magisterium, has likewise asked his little brother and sisters of CTA to not touch those things that they errorneosly hold dear their hearts, and which will cause them pain and suffering.

Your exhortation to ponder scripture is good medicine for all. I also believe that if our CTA brothers and sisters take to heart what you say, they will let go of their hard heartedness and return to the land of milk and honey, peace and serenity, thru their assent to what our Lord teaches in His Church.
Peace to all

Ohevin

Oh heaven, Ohevin, are you speaking of the same Holy Magisterium that allowed bishops in the U. S. and Ireland to cover up child abusing members of the clergy for years and years? Should we accept this as Christ approving of this cover up? Should the victims of this horror beg forgiveness for allowing themselves to be victimized because it was the will of Christ?

You speak of being a parent. Would you not agree with me that what you do speaks to your children with more force than your words do.

How can you call this group we call the Magisterium "Holy"? Let me see the bishops and the members of the "Magisterium" come out in public and accept responsibility for what they have done. Let them make restitution to the victims, their families and the faithful in general whom they have betrayed. Let them explain how, if they cannot make mistakes in matters of morals, they could, for years be guilty of something as immoral as protecting child abusers and allowing them to continue to victimize the lambs they are to shepherd.

Getting lectured on morality from this group is like getting a lecture on chastity from a whore.

The Holy Magisterium didn't teach that sex abuse was okay. You're confusing the teaching authority of the Church with the fact that humans will be sinners (sometimes quite wicked) till the end of time.

But it is obvious you are not Catholic by belief, it is more of a social identity since you clearly don't believe (or simply don't understand) Catholic dogma. The Church claims the God-given authority to teach infallibly, not to be free from sin (no matter how grave).

Nice straw-man though!

"Without them [Rome], no dogma discussed in the Church, even sanctioned by the canons & ecclesiastical usages, can be considered to be approved or abrogated" – Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople

Mendezjb,

As every parent knows, and is even written within the rite of Baptism, we teach by what we do as well as by what we say or write.

Bob,

As you know our Blessed Lord had as one of his original Apostles one who would betray Him and our Lord knew it. That betrayer Judas was the template for so many bad apostles down thru the ages who would do similarly what Judas did. He betrayed the unblemished One; recently so many bishops betrayed their consecrated souls with crimes against children. Yet, in spite of Judas, the Holy Spirit utilized the remaining men to be the pillars of His Church. Is it the first time in the history of the Church that this type of crime has been committed? Of course not. I agree totally with your assesement of what they didn't do and what they should do. However, where we part company is in your desire to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Be assured, those men will have to give an account to Christ the Judge for their great sin against innocent ones. "Better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and thrown into sea, than suffer the fate for having led one of these little ones astray." Relative to this is the fact that, for these consecrated Bishops and priest, "to those have been given much, much more is expected," Our Lord's own words over what fate awaits these men (unless they repent and embrace severe penance) should assuage your thirst for justice on them. And you're absolutely right about getting lectured by Judas like Bishops and Priest being akin to getting lessons from a whore. No disagreement from me on this point.

Bob, Bob, you worry about so many things, yet, only one essential truth is necessary for you and I to accept when it comes to our Lord's Church: It is His Church and, based upon His promise to be with us always, He will make things right. He only ask us to ardently pray for those in authority because of the "battle of powers and principalities" with Satan that is constantly at war with our Lord's Church. One only has to see the recent scandal of betraying bishops and priest to see how serious this battle with the Satan really is. The stakes are high.
Peace
Ohevin

Ohevin,

I absolutely agree that it is His Chruch and, based upon His promise to be with us always He will make things right. The "US" referrem to here is the whole chruch, not just a few who have tried and failed miserably to claim they alone are guided by the Holy Spirt and the rest of us are to bow down in obedience. By their fruits you shall know them. They are the same ones Christ had to deal with within the Jewish community when he walked upon the earth and I say let them also read the Gospels.

I can and do forgive them and I am sure Christ does, but I believe, for the good of the very Church they are to serve, they must stop condemning others and clean up their own act.

Bob,

We are in total agreement here. Come Lord Jesus and help us.

Why agree? BOb's is a straw-man arguement that the Church must stop teaching simply because there are sinners in her ranks.

Let me end the suspense for Bob and the rest of the Protestants-in-denial.....it will never happen! And even Bob and the rest of the Episcopalians don't believe it, because if they did it would then logically follow that if the Church suddenly reversed 2000 years without ordaining women, started allowing abortion and fornication and everything else the Protestants want, then they would be falling all over themselves saying how great the teaching authority of the church is and how it was entirely appropriate and just that they finally acted on those issues.

"Without them [Rome], no dogma discussed in the Church, even sanctioned by the canons & ecclesiastical usages, can be considered to be approved or abrogated" – Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople

With what do those bishops make restitution except our property and our money. Where is the justice in that?

Good question, 123bow. Yes, it is the faithful who seem to be getting stuck with the bill because it was the faithful who, through their contributions, bought and built the properties the bishpos are selling off to make settlements. It just goes to show how many victims the "good" bishops decisions have cost the community.

However, many of them are "fat cats" themselves and I would like to see them lose their personal wealth to help pay the bill for their abuse of their positions.

If not, perhaps they could do some "community service" like cleaning up along highways to symbolize cleaning up the mess they made in the Chruch.

Another on eof those good ideas that will happenb when hell freezes over.

[sarcasm alert: if you are not capable of handling sarcasm please skip this post]But mav, he's ordaining the wrong kind of candidates. These are pious, overly-devotional young men who are committed to the Magesterium, Scripture, and Tradition. We need priests faithful to America and democracy in the Church. Priests who want to Break their vows, not keep them![/sarcasm]

Indeed it is impossible to have a vocations boom in any subset of the Catholic Church that does not correspond with orthodoxy, as only in orthodoxy is there a reason to give up everything (marriage, family, money, fame, freedom) to serve God. Without orthodox belief in the Sacrifice of Jesus, both on Calvary and in the Mass, then the priesthood is absurd.

"Without orthodox belief in the Sacrifice of Jesus, both on Calvary and in the Mass, then the priesthood is absurd."

This is true and I seriously doubt anyone here would disagree with this fundamental core statement. The disagreements are on doctrine.
If your only definition of the priestly role is the one currently held by the Church then conservative dioceses which emphasize the unique sacramental nature of the priesthood will attract people who seem to have a need to be unique and set above. This is one of the reasons I think we could consider a different priesthood which emphasizes sacramental work in smaller settings. If the Church absolutely has to have an all male celibate clergy let them have the large public venues.

I find it interesting that in Acts 6 Peter, addressing the need for the widows to be assisted, said, "It is not right for us to neglect the word of God in order to wait on tables. Look arount among your own number, brothers, for seven men acknowledged to be deeply spiritual and prudent, and we shall appoint them to the task. This will permit us to concentrate on prayer and ministry of the word. The proposal was unanimously accepted by the community."

Peter acknowledges that the community has a responsibility to assist the widows and seen a need to delegate it. He makes a proposal to the community and they approve of it. With this approval, seven are chosen, by the community, and then appointed. This is still reflected in the ordination of priests when it is asked in whose name they are to be ordained. More importantly, Peter difines the role of the Apostles as prayer and ministry of the word meaning, the Gospel.

Acts 2 states that "They (the community) devoted themselves to and apostles' instructions and the communal life, to the breaking of bread and the prayers....They went to the temple area together every day, while in thier homes they broke bread.

The breaking of the bread was not part of Peter's depiction of an Apostle's role and, it certainly would seem, "in their homes" referred to the homes' of the members of the entire community about which the passage is speaking and that the breaking of the bread was not seen as reserved to those in an "ordained" minsitry.

That would indicate that the priestly role currently held by the Chruch does not go back to Apostolic times, but developed over time.

In part this was due to abuses of which Paul speaks as well as part of the process of developing a structure of authority vested in fewer and fewer people while bringing the rest of the community under the authority of those few as we see it today. It is neither repersentative of the early Christian Community nor the understanding of the role of leaders in the Chruch as put forth by Jesus Christ.

A careful reading Acts 6 suggests the idea of ordaining deacons was formed in a council meeting of "the apostles" who then proposed to "the whole group of followers" that they bring 7 men who would be ordained.

As I understand the history, there weren't any priests in the beginning. Only bishops. Priests came later as Christianity spread and it became less possible for bishops to make the rounds to do their pastoral ministry. Which, they say, is the basis for today's understanding that the priest is a representative of the bishop, like his right hand man or an extension of the bishop's right hand. And, the idea that the "fullness" of pastoral ministry resides with the bishop at the Cathedral rather than in the branch offices around the diocese.

As I understand the history, priests were selected by "the whole group of followers" from men who were considered wise and good moral examples within their own community, just like the deacons. They were then presented to the bishop for training and ordination. I think this policy is still in place in some of the Eastern rites. I wonder if a return to this policy in the Roman rite might not go a long way toward relieving the shortage of pastoral ministers. I suspect there are a lot of older, married or widowed men who would, if selected by the whole parish, be willing to serve. Perhaps for a limited amount of time.

There's an interesting review of the process of selecting bishops in this month's U. S. Catholic. "Who picked my bishop" also indicates the method we are used to where the bishops of a province suggest names to the archbishop and they all decide on the name to recommend to the apostolic nuncio who draws up a list of 3 candidates and sends his recommendations to the Vatican Congregation for Bishops. They discuss the choices and recommend one to the pope. The author, David Lysik who teaches at DePaul University, writes this method is a relative newcomer "among an ever-changing variety of forms. All the people selected their bishop until the 4th century. "St. Cyprian is quoted writing that divine authority was the source of the practice. Pope Leo I (440-61) declared: 'He who has to preside over all must be elected by all.'" Kings started appointing bishops in the 6th century and lay participation was no longer part of the process by the 12th century. The 1917 Code of Canon Law gave the pope the authority to freely and directly appoint bishops. Some diocese in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria elect their own bishops. Many Eastern rite churches elect bishops by church synods.

Yes, and has it ever occurred to you what kinds of "candidates" this Bishop approves? Mavfan46, since you cannot even bother to spell Bruskewitz's name correctly, I doubt if his biography or his philosophies are extremely important to you, but perhaps they are. Maybe you might want to look up his autobiography and read it. Of course, like all of us, he is sympathetic (to himself). But then you might want to talk with some of the members of the Diocese of Lincoln, who, after all, have absolutely no input as to who their "Shepherd" is going to be. Find out how these people feel about having this man in charge of their Diocese. Like so many other Catholics experience, their Bishop is NOT a "native", and he has no sympathy for their immediate concerns, work, spiritual, or otherwise. It all depends on his personality.

Contrast that with the Episcopalians, who periodically select a committee of intelligent members from each Parish and "elect" their Bishop, who thus is not "appointed" from some foreign country with the idea that somehow God, and not a few political and selfish cronies appointed him (you really think Cardinal Law was appointed by the Holy Spirit?). Oh boy, we are dumb! And yet, we fork over our money to these dictators willingly, in the oldest "con game" in Town!

I am not saying the Catholic Church is not beautiful and that some of our money should not be given to help peoples of the World, to preserve beautiful Cathedrals, etc. But people like Bruskewitz, who believe "we are children" are living proof that Bishops should be elected, and not appointed after serving some "political" time with the Curia in Rome.

Believe me, what I am saying is the wave of the future. People ARE waking up, and Rome's "gravy train" will not last forever. While it is good, and even wonderful in some ways (I have lived and even worked in Europe) to have some centrality and a diplomatic core, this man represents exactly what will ultimately destroy it for the Church.Too MUCH power is an arrogant and a bad thing that people will eventually refuse to tolerate. If there is a Satan, I tell you, this is HIS work, not Christ's!

No one, not even a Bishop, has the right to steal humankind's God-given dignity!

Seems you have something in common with this guy, an irrational hatred of the Church.

What drives someone to try to dictate policy for a religion they have rejected? Honest;y, I can't figure this out.

All I can hope for is that Archbishop Sheen (Santo subito!) was right, "In this country you could not find a hundred people who hate the Catholic Church, but you can find uncounted millions who hate what they mistakenly believe the Church to be."

Certainly, if it is a manmade institution (like others I could point out), than democracy might be an option (then again, democracies have not lasted long, particularly once they grow past a certain size, monarchies and empires lasted longer as a rule).

Star,
I apologize for the cheap shot, but I still don't get it.

Your quote on Sheen was right on, but being 23 years old, you have no idea what he was talking about, Here Today. He was talking about those who circulated wild and unproven imaginings about the Church's history, like the Evangelical Fundamentalists of the times (1950's) ("They eat babies", "They worship Satan") which had absolutely no basis in reality.

He was not referring to those who had grown up in the Church, been educated by Her, defended her and loved her, knew her history, and then (over time as they were exposed to the reality of life lived under some very corrupt decisions entirely unprotected from error--like it or not) become appalled by her excesses. (Some examples are: sexual abuse scandals, shielding of priests and Bishops and Cardinals in Rome, efforts to avoid restitution, efforts to avoid legal expansion of statutes of limitations as our own Bishop is cynically doing, etc.).

Loyal Catholics tried to call these issues to the attention of Rome but the response has been tepid at best(as has happened in the past twenty years--loyal and believing Catholics like those who joined Call to Action and VOTF.) So, Here Today, your argument equating what Sheen said in the fifties about ignorant nonbelievers to what loyal and caring but disillusioned people are saying today is completely off the wall, a false dichotomy, and completely different circumstances well over a half-Century later.

The Church's hierarchy has behaved immorally today, failed to heal and to model the very precepts we as parents have tried to teach to our young (which the very Church has "ordered" us to teach them over eons). In a word, the Church is Hypocritical at this unfortunate juncture in her History. It is a situation that brings to mind the corruption of pre-Reformation times, in many ways. The Church valiantly tried to address these concerns with Vatican II (with which you appear to demur) but a sizable number of prelates, fearful of loss of their temporal power, seemed to formulate a backlash, and that is how we struggle now.

We all need to shout it from the rooftops, not roll over and play dead. If some of the Bishops refuse to Steward the Church Christ entrusted to her care, it is THEY who are at fault, not the people of God, for daring to point out this obvious fact. We need to speak up, so that those who are faltering (within the Clergy) may take heart.

People ,these days, have a huge reason for their dismay. A long time ago the people of Europe threw up their hands in dismay and simply "gave up" on the Church. The Church in Europe is filled with children and widows. People attend for the "main" Sacraments only. The Church in The United States used to be vital, but it will now go the way of the European Church, but I don't think that is the way (a very much "weakened" Faith for everyone) that anyone really wants it.

Yet, some Bishops don't really appear to truly WISH to carry the Faith to The People. They just seem to want temporal power and control over the lives of others, for themselves. God will judge those who do not wish to carry His Good News of the Spirit to others. As it is in the Spirit, so it will be in the Body.

Um, star, depite being young I am well-read, perhaps as well or better than even some of the more (formally) educated here. I full well know the original context, and I do think that there is a connection between the quote and those who confuse the sins of her members with her Truth. Yes, these are different circumstance, but not all that different at the core.

As you say, God will judge the failings of the priests and bishops.

heretoday,

It is not upon the form of government the Chruch has that will make her last, but because of the promise of Christ to be with her. He also said you cannot serve two masters. The rich, powerful, proud form of governmnet the Chruch has at the present time is not well disposed to be open to the Holy Spirit.

As for Sheen, as much as I admired him, nice thought but a little short on reality.

Quite incorrect. It is on the Rock of Peter that the government of the Church is built. And the gates of hell will not prevail against it because Christ prayed that Peters faith would not fail as the chief shepherd.

"The rich, powerful, proud form of government the Church has at the present time is not well disposed to be open to the Holy Spirit."

The hatred you have for the Catholic church is astounding. You hold protestant doctrine pretending that the reformation is still going on. At least Luther had the decency to start his own religion. Your church already exists. Its declining memberships could use a boost!

"Without them [Rome], no dogma discussed in the Church, even sanctioned by the canons & ecclesiastical usages, can be considered to be approved or abrogated" – Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople

No, I love The Church, and what She was intended to be, and what I was taught She was.
But I hate the Distortions, the Errors, the Prejudices, the Inqisitions, the KnowNothings, the Father Coughlins, the John Birchers, (not as individuals, but their actions) all those who have invoked the name of Christ to do evil to their fellow men and women in His Name in the Church throughout the Centuries past. Their actions do not outweigh the courageous saibnts and martyrs who have acted in Christs's Name which great virtue; in fact lately the mediocrity has far outweighed the virtue, I'm afraid.

If you cannot discern the differences, I am sorry for your lack of education. If you do not understand what the Church has done (that has caused me to leave--sexual abuse of trusting children, moving sexually abusive priests from Parish to Parish in defiance of pastoral care and responsibility, rewarding Cardinal Law for his betrayal of children and families,failure to make adequate restitution to those harmed, and a litany of other modern sins--which just seem to continue) you obviously lack such discernment, and an adequately formed conscience to stand for justice for men and women and children in this Church. You just are oblivious to what has been happening.

There is nothing slightly irrational about my SORROW and ANGER at the Church, for the misuse of Her splendid Gifts, and the trust of so many wonderful and caring and believing people, but not hatred at all.

Christ Himself picked up a whip and whipped the moneychangers from the Temple! Can we do no less? No less is called for now, but the "sheep" are strangely silent, and yes, this does infuriate me. What can I do? I cannot resort to violence, but I can walk out, I can refuse to support this gross hypocrisy and sexual immorality with my meager purse.

And I seldom read your links. I don't have time for their well-meant poison. Life is too short, Chris.

So you left a church because it has sinners. That is silly and irrational. You leave a religion because you disagree with what it teaches. Protestants burned witches. Muslims seem to enjoy human bombs. Atheists.......well they had Hitler. Druids, Aztecs had human sacrifice....let us know when you find the church without them.

You are seeking perfection, or perhaps that's the way you make it sound on purpose. But that is Cafeteria Catholic all the way, but at least taken to its more respectable end of leaving the Church which far too many protestants calling themselves Catholics refuse to do.

"Without them [Rome], no dogma discussed in the Church, even sanctioned by the canons & ecclesiastical usages, can be considered to be approved or abrogated" – Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople

Shootingstar,

As our Lord hung on the cross, we know He looked upon the many who were screaming irrationally and demonically for His blood. He also looked out toward the horizion, where as Saviour, the plains of past and future humanity appeared before Him. In the future He saw the multitudes of bishops, priest and common folks who, throughout the ages to come, would likewise cry for His blood with their sins of betrayals. Instead of cursing us, though, our beloved Jesus asked His Father (and ours) to mercifully forgive us. Shootingstar, you, too, now have the opportunity to be one with Christ on the cross. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Your hurt is far too significant to be squandered on judgementalism. Your hurt is like a spiritual currency that, with forgiveness, can purchase great mercy and merit for deeply conflicted souls. Remember, this battle is about powers and principalities; a battle that in someways is fortunatley beyond our comprehension. But, then, you already know of what I speak.
May Christmas Joy fill your heart.
Ohevin

"Your hurt is like a spiritual currency that, with forgiveness, can purchase great mercy and merit for deeply conflicted souls. Remember, this battle is about powers and principalities; a battle that in someways is fortunatley beyond our comprehension."

These two sentences bring in some very interesting spiritual concepts. A true spiritual counselor would discourage someone from turning themselves into a victim soul. This is a very hard and dangerous path for the uninitiated. Both Catholic mystics like Sr. Faustina, and indigenous healers who heal via this path do not recommend it.

Powers and principalities is a human definition for a human phenomenon. It is not beyond our comprehension. They are a distortion of our creative capacity, anthropomorphised in a manner designed to make them seem beyond us, giving us permission to place the blame for our irresponsible choices on someone or something else.
The human Jesus certainly understood they had as much power over Him as He chose to give them. He gave them none, effectively reducing them to the powerless energies they truly are. He sent them back to the void from whence they were created by our own actions.

I am also perfectly aware of the fact the Church has a different take on the creation of negative plane energy. I wouldn't normally write on any of this, but your advice to shootingstar is, in my opinion, beyond the scope of this dialogue format.

Sorry colkoch, but being a victim soul is a special calling from our Lord Himself.
What I suggested to Shootingstar is well within what our Lord Himself ask of His follwers--to pray for those who are afflicted and in need of God's mercy and to even offer up our own pain and sufferings for them. Contrary to what you say, this is not a dangerous path at all. The BVM nuns first taught me to offer my difficulties up for the suffering souls in Purgatory. Seemed like spiritual commonsense 45 years ago when they taught me this and it still seems prayerfully sensible today.

St. Paul spoken of the war (of sin) being waged between the "powers and principalities." This can hardly be construed as a human phenomenon. I believe your'e very much in the minority in promoting St. Paul's vision as something that has somehow "anthromorphised" into something that we can't handle to understand. That type of nonsensical thinking is something you may want to reconsider in light of the teachings of Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I stand by my suggestion to Shootingstar. I believe I am in good company with a multitude of holy and humble souls who would suggest what I did; it is very germain to the issue at hand.
Peace to all

Ohevin

We choose to see things the way we choose to see things. There was a time in my life when I saw things as you do. Life experience, and other life experience, has shown me a different way to see things. I agree to disagree.

Dearest Friends,
I agree with Col that we choose to see what we see, or perhaps we are "led" to "project" from ur own experience. My own experience has taught me, over many years, Dear Ohevin, NOT to endure BS from self-intrested parties over many years. For over forty years now,(since Humanae Vitae and before) I have watched Church officials lord it over members of the Church in a way inconsistent with the teachings of Christ. I have tried to "stay" and do what I could. But I see it is not probably going to change in my lifetime and especially where I presently live, so unfortunately, to obtain spiritual sustainance, I REFUSE to be a victim, actually. The "poor souls in Purgatory" (should they actually exist--I tend to doubt that one) will have to do without my suffering for awhile---they have had enough of my "giving up" for them!

I tend to "fight" by "speaking up" for the Living, (and on occasion I have spoken up for the wishes of the Dead) and the Church Militant on Earth, which is what I feel I am doing now, and I "feel" that Michael (and by extension, God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit) are with me, whether you do or not. I feel their "Presence" most of the time.

Although a Caveat for us all: We all can have our Spiritual Illusions. If you notice, even Saddam thought God was on HIS side, so we all have to be a bit cautious about pride and "illusory" or "dellusory" systems, and hope for the best, prayerfully! God can come to all People, is my belief, and is not "exclusive" to one religion or another, and is even "forgiving" to the greatest of sinners. I think of the Thief on the Cross when I think of Saddam, for all his merciless killings of others. Who are we to say God does not forgive sociopaths? We cannot know the Mind of God...As much as we have pretensions to know God, we can know only a sliver of God's Magnificence...we tend to forget theis, sometimes. God is far too BIG for us to Contain God.

How narrow we are if we think only the Catholic Church offers Salvation, especially when it is in a State of such unrepentant hypocrisy! Surely then it is our duty to point out the hypocrisy. That does not make us "victims" at all. It makes us anything BUT victims! The "vics" are those, who, like sheep, go along with the sinful systems, rationalizing that if they are "silent" , (somehow) "eveything will be OK" (when in a hundred years? in a thousand years? and how will that spiritually nourish you? or how will that teach your children?) The Church, let's face it, is in a Spiritual Dark Ages right now! It is refusing to lead The People morally and spiritually. God is calling US to speak out, not to rationalize and to be silent!

On the other hand, perhaps in a Zen sense, Col, you are absolutely correct. Meditatively speaking, "All is well, and all manner of things will be well" as Hildegarde would have said, or was it Julian of Norwich?
That approach also works over the long haul. It just isn't very good in terms of "walking the walk we talk" on Earth RIGHT NOW, and it is my belief we have some charge to do that, but Each in Our Own Way, some Within, and Some, Perhaps, Voting With Our Feet. (If some of us do not, I don't think the Church will get the message.) I really do think the Church needs to step up the the plate, if you'll forgive the mixing of metaphors.

Thank you for your Wishes for a Joyful Christmas Season, Ohevin. I did enjoy Christmas, such as it was, surrounded by Family and Friends. I felt so much Gratitude! I was glad to be free of the rancor of debate and argument. I was happy to hear that Jesus was actually born closer to my birthday, April 19, (They say Jesus was born Apr. 17, because they located a large Comet over Palestine on that date) but isn't it nice that Constantine set it up so that we could celebrate it on an old Roman Feast Day in the dead of Winter? With our Blizzards here, it was very cozy this year, if a bit scary! Nobody could travel anywhere, and all our plans were changed, but it was good!

The Church I presently belong to may have its errors and difficulties too, but it is spiritually alive in this place and time. It is able to spiritually nourish me and many others. And that is what is important, to find a place and a group of people where I can worship in community, with Liturgy that is just like the liturgy I am used to.

(Some of you appear to be very uninformed about that, never probably having been inside a "High" Episcopal Church! One can barely tell the difference, and all my Catholic educational life I was told there was the "Real Presence" of Christ there (by nuns, priests, etc.). Of course, they said it was "bad" because of Henry VIII, but they never denied to me true apostolic succession! How could they have been so "ignorant" in this day and age? They were very erudite and well-educated theologians, some of them! That's also what I was also told by both priests I consulted before I left, (one of whom is constantly traveling to Rome and felt it was a good decision for me) so all your mewling and "research" has very little effect on me.

I know the Catholic Church here is effective in spiritually nourishing undocumented immigrants, (that appears to be their main focus) and is devoted in service to them, (all the churches, Catholic and Protestant, here are trying hard to help them) seeing that as part of its "mission to the poor". But what I also see is that meanwhile many other poor and homeless people are getting unconsciously neglected, while the undocumented people who have come over the border are pushing them aside, (compared to some of our own poor, sick, and homeless) with the unconscious help of the Church. I don't think we should neglect the basic needs of anyone, but when I see homeless veterans who are sick standing in the cold, while healthy people crowd in front of them grabbing the available food, as happened in my Town recently (at Christmas), I worry that things are getting out of balance, and something needs to be done.

Something that really bothers me: Part of the conditions that are causing these migrations have been caused by the Church supporting the Upper Classes in Mexico and Central and South America for so many years. Of course, I am not suggesting that these system-wide problems are going to disappear overnight, but look at how threatened the Church is at the "real" meaning of "Liberation" Theology, which was started as a movement, not just spiritual, but to actually give education and material hope to working and very poor and illiterate people in South America, (by the Jesuits. I believe, and they were soundly attacked for it. Think of Paolo Friere's book, which was required reading in many Jesuit Universities, "Pedagogy of the Oppressed".) We are now paying the price for this neglect, because these countries simply cannot support all the people they have birthed (no birth control and uneducated people carefully following the "rules" because they "feared hell") and all the poverty they have caused. This I lay squarely at the feet of the Catholic Church, as well as the irresponsible Upper Classes of these countries, too selfish to care for and plan for their own people. Yet these Upper Classes have been so supported by The Church, I know from personal experience. I went to Catholic Prep Schools and Universities with many of them! And many of them were totally oblivious (when I knew them) to the plight of their own poor. They were playboys and oblivious girls, painting their fingernails, with little interest in studies. I am not saying they remained that way, but that is how they (mostly) seemed to me at the time---rich, spoiled, superficial.

Having had very wealthy (and more distant) family members, I know personally HOW the Church opens doors for and supports the wealthy. The Church does for them what it would NEVER do for those who do not have those "connections". I have seen it happen. This is nothing but corruption, or at minimum, "who you know", greasing the wheels, passing out annulments right and left for careless marriages.

Unfortunately, in the part of Colorado where I live, the Bishop of Denver, although not quite like Bruskewitz, has made the situation inhospitable spiritually. If I lived five short hours away, that would not be the case, but part of my Family is here. Although I do not belong to Call to Action, I would, if it made sense to attend their Conferences and be active. I am completely in sympathy with much of what they do, and support VOTF as much as I can, as well.

Although I am not completely happy with this state of affairs, it is the best I can do under the present circumstances. That makes me ANYTHING BUT a "victim". Victims "stay and suffer". Non-victims take a different route. We all do what we must in these difficult times. Perhaps all our actions are equally valid in the Eyes of God. I do believe we must act according to our consciences, and it would hurt my conscience to stay within the Catholic Church as it is at present, especially where I am located. I would never support this travesty financially.

Sorry for the rant.

God be with all of you, whether we agree on the best solutions for our Beloved Church or not. And my best wishes for a peaceful and spiritually fulfilling year in 2007, Star

Colkoch,

And what things do we choose to see differently? Is my assent and embrace of our Lord's tachings through His Holy Magisterium different than yours? Is this the difference? Are we not of one mind and heart that our Beloved Lord nurtures us most supremely by His Way, Truth and Life in His Universal Church. I'm sincerely curious as to what "Life experience" you refer to that would have us going in profoundly different directions.
Christmas blessings to you.

"Are we not of one mind and heart that our Beloved Lord nurtures us most supremely by His Way, Truth and Life in His Universal Church."

Yes we are, and I think we may have been given different tasks with regards to Holy Mother Church, and so I'll give you a little insight into what my 'Life Experience' has been which puts us in different directions. I don't see them as profoundly different, just different.

I have meditated for over thirty years in support of both my faith and my psychic talent. Rather than go into a long dissertation I think the best way to explain what happened in those meditations is that I've been 'home schooled' in the practical applications of mystical and psychic talent. Part of that schooling has involved contacts within the Native American tradition, but also extensive study into Catholic mysticism. I needed an understanding of the types of energy involved in both systems, and I also had to delve into quantum physics for a meta understanding about what I was being taught in terms of how interdemensional energies effect this reality. As one of my very young compatriots says: "There's like, no real language to 'English' this, so we have to use quantum language as a common point of reference."

The other day I had a very vivid meditation which featured a Bishop in a deeply meditative state, deeply focused on the main crucifix in his cathedral. My original thought for my own meditation is why Bruskewitz felt the need to excommunicate where others had not. I understood right away the depth of this man's faith and the importance of his prayer life. Just then I saw feces being thrown on the cross and knew without a doubt he also saw dissention as a mockery of his truth. I was overwhelmed with two thoughts, one that this is not any of our intentions, to mock Christ or his Church, and two that this might be an unbridgeable gap. I feel a presence to my right and I know I'm in for it now. The first question I was asked is what I was feeling at that moment. What I was feeling was an overhwhelming compassion and a connection with the bishop I never expected. I undestood the depth of his prayer life and his fear for his Church. Then I heard my companion say, "Perhaps the bridge you seek is compassion." I must have radiated confusion, because then he said, "Find a common goal you could both pray for and in that goal you will discover mutual compassion and a mutual connection." So I said, "Like what, Peace on Earth, that's been an effective one." Hearing the sarcasm he laughed and said, "Nor has goodwill to all men for that matter. But try this one. Pray Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done. No expectations, no preconcieved notions, no agenda, just Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, and trust God knows what He's doing and you don't." I laughed and thought this one might work. Drop the agendas and just pray for His Kingdom done through His will and let the chips fall where He wants them too. I guess this was my Christmas meditation.

Part of what I'm being asked to do is to start seeking the common ground within Christianity so the power of Christ is not inhibited by agendas which inhibit that expression no matter how well intended, or how basely intended, those agendas may be.

If I may be presumptous here, I think what some of us are being called to do from the margins of Catholicism, you are being called to do from a less marginal position within the Church---seeking the common ground. Peace, love, and joy to you in this season of hope.

Colkoch,

Thank you very much for sharing your medition. There is much there to think about and I was deeply moved by it.

I think the Holy Spirit moves in very mysterious ways. I am reminded of orbits. Take, for example, the earth orbiting the sun or the moon orbiting the earth and I also think it would apply to the atom itself. Orbits are maintained when opposing forces are in harmony. Inertia would like to send the moon off into space and gravity would have it crash into the earth, but the harmony of the two keep it on track.

Could it be that way with us. We have opposing views but we should not seek to overcome the other but to find harmony, common ground.

Yes, "Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done. No expectations, no preconcieved notions, no agenda, just Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, and trust God knows what He's doing and you don't." I know that, I pray that, but, so often, in the now moment I forget it. If you see me forgetting, please be so kind as to kick my butt.

Thanks again.

God bless.

Bob, it may be that the balance Christ seeks between the social action of Martha and the spiritual mysticism of Mary is not within individuals but within the Church in it's infinite expressions of both kinds of individuals. The trick is to recognize the valid contributions of both types of belief expression and seek the common ground. Don't you think there's a message on this board at this time about this lesson in the lives of Gumbleton and Bruskewitz, and that the faith lives of both these men have messages for all of us if we can get outside our own egos to find them?

Colkoch,

I would agree that the balance is to be found "within the Chruch in its infinite expression of both kinds of individuals." I think here we have to understand and respect the importance of communitation. We must each speak our word, knowing that it is not the last word or the right word but simply my word and my word is me.

We not only have to speak our words, we must listen to the words of others. Debate, not to overcome, but to understand. It requires that I be open to change.

There is a Gospel call to metanoia. It is more than repentence for sins, it is a call to see life in whole new light. In linear time, it appears to be a beginning, but in the eternal present it is always prompting us to listen, to learn and to grow.

I pray that I am sure enough of myself to speak my thoughts and unsure of myself enough to change when another shows me the faults in my thinking.

Ohevin,

I have no intention of attempting to answer for Clokoch, but I couldn't resist attempting to share with you my "Life experience" which does seem to have us going in profondly different directions when it comes to understanding "the Chruch."

I'm not at all sure I can find the right words but I will try.

When God spoke to Moses from the burning bush and gave Moses his marching orders, Moses posed a question, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and lead the Israelites out of Egypt?" Who am I? Interesting question. God answered, "I will be with you." I am not at all convinced that was the answer Moses wanted to hear.

I can't remember a time when I have not experienced God as "with me." I can't begin to explain it. God is simply persent, here with me. It is a presence I feel, I experience. Is this presence the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, Yahweh, Elohim, all of the above, none of the above? I really can't answer that because the moment I say something, the moment I try to reduce it to a concept or a word, I am thinking and speaking of something less than the reality I experience. Yet, we attempt to speak of God. God is Other. No matter what we think and/or say, God is Other, God is more.

There was a particular time in my life (one of many) when it seem everything was crashing in on my head and I could see no way out. I was walking along the crest of a hill overlooking a river and, quite honestly, bitching to God and God said to me in a voice that was as real as any voice I have ever heard, "I love you." "I love you!" It was the last thing I expected to happen or to hear. It did not make the problems go away, but if sure put them in a different perspective.

Moses, having asked who he was, then asked who God was. "What is your name?" he asked. God responded "Yahweh". Now, Yahweh is not God's name. It is a verb, not a noun. It is the first person singular of the future/causative tense of the verb "to be". As such, it does not mean, "I am who am." although it is a nice thought. There is no English equivlaent of it so we must seek a phrase that would attempt to convey its meaning. For example, I will be what I cause" or "I am what I will cause." I think, in the context of the story, God is saying to Moses, "Right, Moses, you really do not know who I am, but you will come to know me as you experience me acting powerfully on your behalf in history.

On Mt. Sinai, God identifies himself as the God who "bore you up on eagles wings and brought you here to myself." In other words, God is identifying himself as the God who they have come to know as the one who acted powerfully on their behalf.

I have been "taught" many things about God. This is a God about whom things can be said, who can be contained in dogmas and doctrines. It is a lesser God than the one I know from the experience of his presence loving me and protecting me even from myself. This God often gets in the way of the God I experience.

The God I expereience so loved the world he sent his only Son to be our Savior. This God is a God of justice who already judged us all, found us all worthy of condemnation, and then sent his Son to pay the price of our Redemption.

It is this Son who, having paid that price, founded a Chruch which is a Spirit filled Community with whom he promised "to be with" until the end of time. It is this Son who sent us the Holy Spirit.

It is this Holy Spirit who helps us unterstand Christ's message and calles us and empowers to love as we are loved.

The Church I believe in struggles, each day, with trying to practice this love. It is a Church which has no canned answers to loves demands, no "one size fits all" solutions.

And, we ask, "Who are we to love in this manner?" and God answers, "I am with you." and you will know me because you will experience me with you as you struggle. God says, "Yahweh"

Bob,

I very much enjoyed your personal reflection. I believe we have more in common than in difference.

Peace

Why, at least. can't you people accord the man enough respect to spell his name right?
You seem to like his ideas, although you know almost nothing about him, and show not even enough curiosity to look him up on Google, and find out about him, yet you will write about him and "defend" him to honest, God-fearing Catholics who know far more about him AND his career.

BRUS-KE-WITZ (PROPER SPELLING) SPENT 11 CHERISHED YEARS IN ROME, (SEE HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY) working for PAUL VI, JOHN PAUL I (for a month before he was perhaps murdered), and JOHN PAUL II. Of course he was made a Bishop, regardless of his "leadership" talent! That's how it happens for the American Catholic Church, these days, in case anyone wondered.

As to how one raises "children", having been a mother of four in 3 and a half years, Marfan, I couldn't agree with you more. But, are YOU a "child"? I didn't think so! neither am I. Neither are most of the people in the Lincoln Diocese. Therefore, your analogy does not hold. Do you and your hubby own or rent a home or drive a car? Insure property? Hold jobs? Right. Not children. Get my drift? You have been thinking for yourselves for a long time. You are literate, mature citizens of a Free Country.

This is not the Roman Empire in 400 A.D., where most of the people were illiterate, and dependent on a village headman or "priest" for "orders". Get with it.

Only the Curia (where Bruskewitz spent 11 years of his career) seems unaware that times have not changed. You are NOT a child. Time to GROW UP!

Thanks for the correct spelling, Star. The correct pronunciation is now Brus-ke,it having been generally acknowledged that he lost his witz some time ago.

Now that was funny...and staying online too long seems to rob some of you of any humor...where are your wits about you?

You are right, Annie, some of these people are NOT funny, and what's more, it is dispiriting to discover that at least one of these sanctimonious scrooges are cheating with full knowledge of what they are doing. Imagine rating twice 4's under two different names, and then "playing the saint"! It does rob one of one's sense of humor, because it seems so entirely unimaginable. But why does it surprise one? Look at the sanctimonious Law! Look at all those sanctimonious pedophiles, hiding behind the Church's skirts, while all those broken Families try to pick up the broken pieces of their lives...Yeah, let's tell another joke! Yahoo!

Dear Star,
I am sorry if my joke distressed you. I know these are seious issues and that real people live in real pain because of what goes on. One of my favorite Hindu dieties is Durga. I guess you'd say she is my patron saint. She vanquishes evil with derisive laughter. If in my attempt to follow her instruction, I have caused you pain, I beg your forgiveness.
Frannie