Godless
Although this is basically an internal protestant matter (or so I gather) it is nevertheless an interesting intellectual exercise as to origins and consequences:
I just read an article in a Dutch newspaper to the effect that it transpired in a recent survey that:
1. one in six vicars (especially those of baby-boom age)actually does not believe in God and carries on nonetheless as some sort of social worker;
2. God is commonly referred to as "The Light" or "The Unnamed" (50% of women), as opposed to The Father which is considered too authorative.
3. In a commentary somebody expressed his indignation about Pope Benedict's fight against Relativism which amounts to a fight against tolerance.
Large academic, but any ideas/comments appreciated.
John Garvey is an Orthodox
John Garvey is an Orthodox Christian (Russian) priest. He writes regularly for "Commonweal" magazine. Recently a book of his essays with the title "Against the Current" was published. It was reviewed in the "NCR" by Kate Oglebay White who worked for 17 years at the La Maison d'Ananie, center for the catechumenate in Paris.
Here is a little of what Fr. Garvey teaches us. Life is difficult. We don't own God, faith is hard to live, and is not absolutely certain. Garvey tells us, "Trust in God is nothing like a claim on him or ownership or a sense of absolute certainty."
"This God has no handle - not designer, planner nor architect except as a fleeting metaphor... This God is unknowable, silent, suddenly appearing, interfering when unwanted and absent when wanted, always elusive—and this tricky one is responsible for the universe."
Fr. Garvey reflects the Russian Orthodox tradition he serves. Within that tradition God is rarely defined or described but adored as the unknowable and loveable presence of a father.
"Concepts create idols. Only wonder comprehends anything." -- St. Gregory Nyssa
Michael
Doesn't anybody believe
Doesn't anybody believe that, as a vicar and pastorial worker you lose the faith in the actual God you are supposed to serve, you can in good conscience carry on as if nothing basically happened? A thing like that really knocks my socks off! (But then I seem to be somewhat out of touch with the mainstream nowadays ...). Lovely by the way, to have this lively discussion! Thanks!
Cassandra, I suspect there
Cassandra,
I suspect there are more than a few vicars, priests, pastorial workers who have lost their faith in "the actual God" they are supposed to serve and do carry on as if nothing happened. They may also do very fine work.
However, they have reduced faith to philosophy. Granted, many times a very good philosophy and we all know that some folks have even died for their philosophy.
However, in my view, a philosoply is not to be confused with faith. Faith is trust in someone who has proven him/self worthy of that trust. In theis case, God. It is this faith through which we are redeemed. As a result of faith in God, one can and should be moved to do good for others. However, doing good is no substitute for faith nor is it redemptive.
I would question one who said they had faith and did not do good works. I think James had some pretty strong convictions about this.
I'm guessing that what you
I'm guessing that what you refer to as a loss of faith is more a questioning of who I am and who God is. I think it's extermely honest for Christians to have that kind of uncertainty because it lets them look for the truth and leads to a deeper awareness of themselves, of God, and of their relationship with God. I think absolute certainty is the death of Christianity as it is becoming with Catholicism in some quarters.
From the perspective of
From the perspective of evolution, it would seem that faith isn't really "lost" because we cannot arbitrarily erase from our genetic codebook the imprints we are born with and by which reason passes judgment and discerns the credibility and incredibility of knowledge. Sure, we "lose" specifically fixed consciousness when it is replaced with "higher", better-informed knowledge. God-consciousness must evolve also and less adequate perceptions must give way to more adequate perceptions as consciousness evolves. And sometimes the replaced faith isn't necessarily better informed than the prior. We do make miatakes in judgments. In any case, faith is not static. Breaches of faith, however, do real harm to the good faith of others and that is a real "loss" of faith.
Human coming to
Human coming to God-consciousness in evolving energy/matter is by way of iterations of gestation, birth, maturity and death. Personal and social evolution in God-consciousness is still in process in the iterations of developing self-awareness. I believe in Trinity Process (Trimorphic Resonance) and Person, not in the schism and alienation of sexual attributions but in the equal implication and transformation of femaleness and maleness.
Alienated male sexual preference in Godhead consciousness has to do with cultured male fixation in habits of domination and prideful casuistry. Patriarchy's self affirming, in its erroneous presumptions about sexuality, e.g., that the male sperm (seed) is a self-contained and complete male person, is a cultural defect that still misinforms Christian absolutism as to the mutual codependency of male and female.
It seems wrong and idolatrous that males claim dominion right and exclusive place in Godhead Trinity based on sexual modeling, that is, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from (is) the the Love between Father/Son. God Self-reveals in Word, Light and Love, whose family parallel is harmony of Mother/Father/Child(ren). Church is authentic when it reflects in person and process the family model of Godhead Trinity.
This is a brilliant comment.
This is a brilliant comment. I sometimes wonder how many Catholics really understand our sexual morality and vision of the Godhead is based on an understanding of procreation which states the entire child is contained in the sperm and the woman is only the receptacle and nurturer of this self contained fact. This persisted for centuries upon centuries in spite of the glaring fact children often looked far more like their mother than their father.
Yes. The "sperm" was called
Yes. The "sperm" was called homunculus or little person. The discovery of the function of the ovaries in the 1840's changed that. The old theory was based on the model of planting a seed in the earth. A priest recently said that in light of
the new science we could know that 100% of Jesus' DNA came from Mary: her eyes, her hair, her smile. I asked him if he were sure. He said absolutely. This is a good and honorable man who has given his whole life to God. I just didn't have the heart to tell him that then Jesus would be a girl. Nor could I bring myself to ask him what this knowledge means for the doctrine of the virgin birth.
A friend of mine has a
A friend of mine has a similar story about another older, wonderful, and very devout priest. He asked my friend why it was that women didn't get prostate cancer the way men did.
Luv2Laf, Thanks for some
Luv2Laf, Thanks for some help!
Your welcome. Also, in case
Your welcome. Also, in case you didn't know, if you hit the, ' reply ', button your post will be indented and positioned immediately below that window. Otherwise, it goes to the very top of the list and can be missed on a long thread.
We Must Not Confuse What Is Essential In The Church With That Which Is Mutable, No Matter How Ancient It May Be
Thanks again! May not
Thanks again! May not remember that right away, but eventually I'll get it for good.
Better help explain "JRS"
Better help explain "JRS" and "IAC". don't know if I'm out of the current talk or that is cell texting, which I'm definitely out of. Not too good at sign language either, but that I wish I was.
The issue is not whether the Pope is a Thomist per se to say that the magesterium wishes that Jesus thought like St. Thomas.
IAC, looks like shorthand
IAC, looks like shorthand for,' In Any Case '.
JRS, from its position appears to be a personalized signature or ' Tag Line '. It could mean any number of things, from, ' Jesus Really Saves ' to ' Jesuit Recruiting Service '. ( It could even be the author's initials if he prefers to not use his first name, inre; RobbyS ).
Beauty is Truth in its most attractive form.
I think it is philosophic
I think it is philosophic relativism that the Pope is working against. The structure of traditional church teaching is dependent on a framework of Thomistic objectivism. It's a hard struggle at a time when the holes and gaps in objectivism are discussed front and center in many disciplines and in society at large. One reason that it hits on the tolerance issue is that multicultural issues are one of the problems for objectivism--what happens when the words and meanings change, how does culture affect objectivism, etc. The Pope's response is, of course, intensely that of the German academic, and there is a pretty far gap between that and the ways most people discourse with each other, so it is unlikely that most people can put a nuanced academic subject into anything other than blunter terms that sound like an attack on everything different. A very tough subject to address well.
I really think that many of the magisterium don't realize how much they actually wish that Jesus had thought like St. Thomas Aquinas, instead of telling stories and asking people to interpret them--the subjective approach.
JRS The pope is not a
JRS
The pope is not a Thomist. His first academic work was on Bonaventura. IAC, the point is that orthodox Islam is philosophically skeptical. They call Al Ghazali "the Muslim Aquinas," but he had more in common with Berkeley. Hume and Kant than with St. Thomas. They, however, came after the "Scientific Revolution," which arguably was impossible
in a culture that strictly followed Al Ghazali. The striking failure of scientific research to take hold strongly in the Middle East, despite the high intelligence of the Muslim elites, does need some explaining.
Help! I thought mathmatics
Help! I thought mathmatics and chemistry were both of Middle Eastern origin.
Even here in America in the
Even here in America in the late Ninteenth Century, prominent leaders were heard to declare that all of scientific knowledge had been acquired. Command decisions get made and the attendant consequences prevail. This goes to the root of many East/West relations problems. We really need to come to terms on shared priorities.
Beauty is Truth in its most attractive form.
I'm not sure I understand
I'm not sure I understand what relativism means. If it is what we used to call situational morality, then I think Jesus was a relativist. He healed on the sabbath. He allowed the disciples to pick grain on the sabbath. He touched lepers. He did not enforced the prescribed penalty for the woman caught in adultery. He did not rebuke the woman with the issue of blood (halachaicly unclean)for touching him. All of these are violations of the law. He expected us to pull our ox out of the ditch on Saturday. His decisions are always lovingly practical.
We are called, I believe, to go therefore and do likewise.
Love your comment frannie
Love your comment frannie schafer. So Jesus was not a "relativist" but rather an "absolutist" ~ always with love, compassion and of course intelligence. That is my bible: it is not a book of answers but instructions and principles on how to respond to questions, situations and life itself. That to me is why real Christians are so vulnerable (and predictable, in theory).
Relatvism is the notin that
Relatvism is the notin that there is no such thing as truth, except in the "scientific" notion of high probability.
God Bless our Holy Father
God Bless our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI.
Compendium of CCC 28:
"Faith is the supernatural virtue which is necessary for salvation. It is a free gift of God and is accessible to all who humbly seek it. The act of faith is a human act, that is, an act of the intellect of a person - prompted by the will moved by God - who freely assents to divine truth. Faith is also certain because it is founded on the Word of God; it works “through charity” (Galatians 5:6); and it continually grows through listening to the Word of God and through prayer. It is, even now, a foretaste of the joys of heaven."
Lord we believe, help our unbelief.
Peace and Good,
Your Brother in Christ (Franciscan Tertiary of Mary, Mother of the Most Holy Eucharist)