Is the Anti Abortion Caucus Telling the Truth?
First, let me make one thing very clear:
--- I abhor abortion.
Let me make something else very clear:
--- I abhor lying and deception even more.
--- As far as I'm concerned, those who lie are worse than the doctors who
--- perform abortions. Especially if those who are lying are clergy.
On a recent post one author stated there have been 530 million abortions and quoted statistics from the Guttmacher Institute. It seems like I have seen this figure quoted in more than one place. I started doing some what ifs with those numbers. What I came up with was the following:
There are 300 million people in the US.
--- that means almost two abortions for every man woman and child.
Assuming for the sake of argument that only women have abortions.
--- that means that every female in the US has had 4 abortions.
Assume that half of the females are girls too young to get pregnant.
--- that means that every adult female in the US has had 8 abortions.
Assume for the sake of argument that only 1/2 of these women had abortions.
--- that means that each adult woman in the US had 16 abortions.
According to your numbers, there have been 16 abortions per woman. That simply is not a realistic number. So, I went to the quoted source. I found some very interesing statistics on their website:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
--- there has been a steady decline in abortions in the US since 1981.
--- According to Guttmacher, "From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions occurred.[2]"
530 million vs 45 million ... there is just a tad bit of difference there.
Those figures are overstated by 12 times.
There is only one conclusion.
A lot of the stuff comes
A lot of the stuff comes from the NRLC.
Considering that it has
Considering that it has been stated that anyone supporting an Obama presidency was/is complicit in MURDER because of his pro choice attitudes (supporting Roe) Well Roe is on the Books and supported by the U.S. Government, who would be complicit by support! Would it not follow that, any one who pays U. S, income tax is also complicit by support? A whole nation of murdering taxpayers? Ain't I got enough trouble just being me?
God loves us all, and forgives us our inadequacies! If asked to do so.
James Edward
There has been a lot of
There has been a lot of discussion by many antiabortionists (and the bishops of the RCC) that the abortion statistics show that abortion is the worst ill our society faces today. How many times have bishops stood in front of cameras and stated tha "abortion is the only issue that matters"?
They have even quoted outrageous statistics that show there are more abortions than there are of people dying in war and from starvation. Fact of the matter is, as we investigate further into these claims, we find that a vast majority of the statistics and arguements the antiabortionists present are erroneous and in my opinion, deliberate attempts to deceive the unsuspecting general public into supporting their cause.
Some factual statistics:
According to Guttmacher
1.5 million abortions per year, steadily diminishing
According to the USDA Annual Report of Food Security
36.2 million US adults and children were malnourished in 2007
11.9 million US adults and children went hungry in 2007
These numbers are increasing each year
It is time we put things into their proper perspective. The antiabortionist have repeatedly stated that the number of homeless and starving in this country are inconsequential. The only thing that matters to them is abortion.
I would say that 36 million americans being malnourished and dealing with the resultant physical problems that malnourishment brings is a huge trump card over abortion. I would say that 12 million americans facing starvation is a huge trump card over abortion. Especially to those who are malnourished and starving.
Please tell me how a member of the clergy could stand in front of a camera and say that 12 million americans facing starvation somehow is inconsequential? Please someone who claims to be serving God can stand in front of a camera and say that 12 million americans facing starvation is not important?
Whenever we hear the words "abortion is the only issue that matters" what the person is really saying is that it doesnt matter if 12 million americans starve.
As far as I'm concerned, that is a sin greater than abortion.
As far as I'm concerned, this lack of concern by so many of the bishops is proof that they can no longer function effectively in that role and need to be removed for the greater good of the church.
Do we really want men protecting the deposit of faith who cannot tell the truth? Do we really want men protecting the deposit of faith that believe that 12 million people starving is not an issue?
One of the common threads we
One of the common threads we heard and continue to hear from the anti-abortion caucus and from the vocal majority of the Vatican is that anyone who voted for Obama is pro-abortion, pro- all sorts of ugly nasty things.
OK, so using that same logic, what can we discern about those who voted for McCain?
Anyone who voted for McCain is pro-hate and pro-deceit.
Anyone who voted for McCain is pro-corruption.
Anyone who voted for McCain is pro-war.
Anyone who voted for McCain is pro-torture.
Anyone who voted for McCain is pro-destruction of the environment.
Anyone who voted for McCain is pro-privilege for the wealthy.
You forgot anyone who voted
You forgot anyone who voted for McCain is pro embryonic stem cell research.
http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com
Thank you for reminding me
Thank you for reminding me of that important point.
That brings us to another disparity. This is addressed to all of the Bishops and the Faithful Orthodox who voted for McCain AND who have been so vociferous in their condemnation of those of us who voted for Obama:
McCain is pro-stem cell research.
The major source of stem cells is still aborted fetuses.
Therefore anyone who supports stem cell research also supports abortion.
Since McCain supports stem cell research, he also supports abortion.
Anyone who supported McCain also supports stem cell research.
Anyone who supported McCain also supports abortion.
In case anyone is missing the point let me lay it out again.
Everyone who voted for McCain, also voted to support abortion.
That means that all of the bishops and "faithful" who pontificated so loudly in favor of McCain, were also pontificating equally loudly in favor of stem cell research AND abortion.
The Vatican has denounced both abortion and stem cell research.
Isnt it interesting how every time the vocal minority of the bishops and the "faithful" open their mouths in condemnation of others, they ultimately end up condemning themselves with their own words.
Now the next question, how many of these bishops and "faithful" are still receiving and taking communion while being in a state of unrepentant sin?
I know I sound like a broken
I know I sound like a broken record, but there is so much deceit within the ranks of the Magisterial Authorities. For the latest deceit re: the abortion issue:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.catholics16nov16,0,1894003.story
There is a wonderful graphic that tells an interesting story. If either party is to be labeled "party of death", based on the statistics, it should be the republican party, the party that so many of the bishops were so vigorously supporting.
This is an excerpt from the article:
-------------------------------------
Analysis of abortion statistics over the past 28 years demonstrates that Democrats do a better job of reducing the number of abortions than Republicans. Significantly more progress was made against abortion during the Clinton administration than during any of the three Republican administrations that preceded or followed it.
-------------------------------------
What are we supposed to think and believe now?
I see only one possibility: the Magisterial Authorities LIED to us again!
There had to be at least one of them that knew of these statistics.
Why werent they mentioned? For one thing, it would have torpedoed their efforts to get a Republican Administration back in the White House.
Why was that so important to them? It is very clear now that abortion was nothing more than a vehicle, a smoke screen that the Vatican was using to promote another agenda.
What had the Republican Party promised the Magisterial Authority if they were elected?
What could have been so valuable that the MA's were willing to commit and continue to commit the sin of lying?
**************************
Update:
I asked the question, why were the bishops so adamant in their support of the Republican Administration?
John Dears article from Nov 18: "The Pentagon hosts a dinner for the U.S. bishops" answers the question with crystal clarity. A quote from the article:
---- "The Pentagon had bought the bishops off"
Will there ever be an end to the corruption in the Magisterial Authority?
Is there anything about the Magisterial Authorities that is not corrupt?
A quick visit to the
A quick visit to the Guttmacher Institute page -
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html -
reveals that the Institute cites this:
"The number of induced abortions declined worldwide between 1995 and 2003, from nearly 46 million to approximately 42 million. About one in five pregnancies worldwide end in abortion."
The numbers for the US are on this page:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
Thomas
Thomas, worldwide abortion
Thomas, worldwide abortion statistics include natural miscarriages.
Thank you thomas, you
Thank you thomas, you confirmed what I suspected.
Another form of deception: during discourse about the US elections, citing world wide abortion statistics to make the situation in the US appear to be worse than it is. I'm not saying the US statistics arent bad. I'm saying to use worldwide statistics, then compare them with US figures in other areas is such as war casualties is deception. A lie.
We do not need to lie about abortion. 1.2 million a year in this country is too many. But then again, how many lies have been told by the antiabortionists to forward their cause. However many it is, it is far too many as well.
It was not abortion that created the world financial crisis, It was deception.
It was not abortion that created the irag war. It was deception.
It was not abortion that perpetuated the child molestation scandal in the church.
--- It was deception.
It was not abortion that created the savings and loan scandal. It was deception.
Behind the abortion crisis, is deception.
Within all of that and more, we have church leadership that regularly practices deception in the name of god. My question is, which god are they serving with the deceptions?
"As far as I'm concerned,
"As far as I'm concerned, those who lie are worse than the doctors who perform abortions."
Naughty, naughty! Boy are you going to get it from Thomas! Thomas will be quite cross!
However God loves you and knows that I do too!
James Edward
Nah, he wont say anything.
Nah, he wont say anything. He knows that deceit in all of its forms is the worst of all sins. There have been more instances of deceit than there have been in all of the abortions performed since time began. Deceit has caused the deaths of more people that abortion ever will. Deceit has destroyed more lives than abortion ever will. Deceit has destroyed entire populations and civilizations. Lying will always trump abortion.
The worst lies of all are the ones told by those who are charged with the responsbility of being spiritual leaders.
Lest anyone forget, it was the lies of the scribes and pharisees that brought about Jesus's crucifiction. The evidence against Jesus was falsified. In that vein, the leadership of the Catholic Church continues to follow in the footsteps of the scribes and pharisees. They continue to falsify information in order to pursue their personal agendas. They think nothing of falsifying information and using deceit to destroy those who stand against them.
The really sad part is that for all of their education and training, they still cannot or they will not make that connection. The leadership is destroying the catholic church the same way the scribes and pharisees destroyed the Jewish nation. It is all written in very clear language in the bible for everyone to read. The more we study the scriptures, the more we recognize the parallels. Fascinating, even the rhetoric we are hearing is the same. Sad, very sad.
Everything Jesus said about the scribes and pharisees applies the catholic leadership today. Everything. Even down to the fancy clothes and pompous attitudes.
COL55! Whether these
COL55!
Whether these people are quoting honest numbers, I cannot say. However much I agree with your conclusion I can only respond with observatioms gleaned from very personal experience. No! I have never had an abortion! But the issue raised it's ugly head, at age 34, when my wife discovered that she was pregnant with our fifth child and youngest son. Our economic situation was dire, to say the least, but I AM Catholic! I could have readily changed my mind when, in 2006, this same child, now 33 years old and the father of one, evicted me from MY property, and My home,(that he had watched me spend all of my savings and retirement, building), sold same and ran to Texas and his Mom! I must admit that I momentarily considered Retroabortion!
I considered changing my mind again, during litigation of the property issue, when upon deposition, this same young man stated to my attorney that, the reason he had evicted me from MY property was that he and his wife were afraid that I would "do something" to my grand daughter! When asked if he had any evidence to support that suspicion he answered, "Well he was molested as a child!" Which is true! However as much as I abhor abortion, I abhor child molestation from a very personal point of view! On advice of counsel I subjected my self to evaluation, by internationally recognized, respected, and magnanomously expensive, experts, to gauge my pedophilic tendencies! All of this from a child whose very being, at one time, depended on the direction of my head movement or my utterance of a yes or no!
The fact that my son draws breath until God says no! is a testament to his fathers belief in the sanctity of life! Learned at the hand of Sister Clara, Sister Bernadette, Sister Celestine, and father Joe!
What they could not teach me was the impact of the gut wrenching, soul tearing, pain involved in deciding whether to end a life or not! Those who post, advertise,yea! scream!, the numbers you quote, no doubt feel that they are professing their goodness and faith! Should my experiencesbe be any indice thereof, that faith will be tried! And tried! And the judgement will be not of this earth!
I would also point out that the responsibility for Roe v Wade's placement and perpetuation "on the books" lies with 545 men in seats of government, representing the wishes of 301 million constituents. I'd never profess to know, but I imagine that Gods concern is fairly equally divided amongst the aborted, the abortee, the abortionist, those who support all, and those who judge all!
"He posessed the assuredness of only the really stupid!" "Mendacity! Lies Maggie! Lies!"
Ignorance lies to hide it's ignorance! Fear accepts lies, to hide it's fear!
God loves you COL55! As he does us all!
No doubt in my mind, He loves your work even more than I!
Forgive my rambling!
James Edward
I have always heard folk on
I have always heard folk on both sides quote 1.5 million a year. Over 30 years that woud be 45 million. Is it possible the larger number was a typing error?
What antiabortionists and
What antiabortionists and the bishops are not telling us:
Accorging to the Guttmacher Institute:
during the Clinton administration, abortions decreased approx 4%
during the Bush Jr administration, abortions decreased approx 1.5%
Quite a substantial difference. Based on these figures one must conclude that the Democratic platform is more effective at reducing abortion than the Republican platform.
Now, we have to ask, with this evidence, which is public record (which by the way the Bishops in all of their rhetoric failed to mention) why in the world were the Bishops so adamant about forcing Catholics into voting for McCain?
Is it possible that they were pushing another agenda, a political agenda that they do not want us to know about?
It really isnt hard to figure out. Under the Clinton Administration, the Vatican and Magisterial Authorities were "snubbed" by the administration for their inappropriate activities related to the child molestation scandal. Very simply, the bishop's actions this time were payback and revenge. The abortion issue was a convenient vehicle for them to vent their vindictiveness.
Otherwise, why would they ignore McCains record on stem cell?
Otherwise, why would they approve of the hate rhetoric of the McCain campaign?
Otherwise, why would they ignore McCains past pro abortion voting record?
Otherwise, why would they ignore the evidence that democrats fare better?
Otherwise, why would they hide that that abortion rates are steadily decreasing?
Otherwise, why would they ignore .... the list is almost endless.
It all keeps coming back to the same thing:
The Magisterial Authorities CANNOT be trusted to tell the truth, about anything!
Hi, COL55, Thank you for the
Hi, COL55,
Thank you for the forum topic. I, too, had seen those astronomical figures given as to the number of abortions performed. But I hadn't taken the time that you did, to do the research and the analysis.
While every abortion is one too many, some person (or persons) were really making a terrible situation into a mind-boggling mega-disaster! We need to do much, much better, certainly, with guidance, housing, health-care, education/job-training, etc., for girls and women considering an abortion. But at least we have not had 530 million abortions in this nation. From that horrific number, we might not have ever been able to chart a course that would lead to greater reductions of abortions, never mind, seeing the time when girls and women would not even consider them.
Again, a response of
Again, a response of compassion rather than single-eyed judgment. Thank you Brother Bear and COL55.
The Rev. Dr. E. McCoy
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you... (Jn13:34)
Brother Bear, we also need
Brother Bear, we also need to stop giving fathers of aborted babies a free ride and insist on mutual sexual responsibility. The abortion debate seems to have an underlying assumption that male moral responsibility ends with ejaculation. God does not make women pregnant and alone, men do.
http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com
They get so wrapped up in
They get so wrapped up in their outrage about abortion that they actually believe any outrageous statistic without question. It would be funny, but it has had such maddening consequences.
And Marie, they also posted
And Marie, they also posted links to films of an abortion. I am wondering if it was a still-born that they were showing in the film. Wouldn't that be something to consider too, since they are so wrapped up in their outrage they don't consider these things either?
They also don't consider the young girl who was raped who is voiceless and has been violated. She should get permission from her rapist to have an abortion is their answer, or worse, carry a child that she never gave consent to carry in the first place. She is utterly voiceless, without civil rights at all and in their view the male sperm penetrating the egg are given the only priority. This is a form of violence upon violence against females.
Has anyone bothered to ask
Has anyone bothered to ask someone who really knows, someone who has had first hand experience, if the film is an accurate representation, or a hollywood mockup? With the digital technology available today, pretty much anything can be added to a video and it will look real.
Take star wars as an example, it looks pretty real when the light saber severs an arm. Does anyone believe the actor actually lost an arm?
With the penchant that the antiabortionists have for using deception to further their cause, I suggest that the film is a fraud. It shows something, but what it is really showing is not what the antiabortionists claim.
It might indeed be the case
It might indeed be the case that they don't know what they are looking at in video either. This irrationality is exactly why there has been no progress in finding a middle ground between abortion without restrictions and no abortion. The woman or girl is disregarded even though she is the most significant individual human being in this process of reproduction, and the focus is all on the idea of abortion.
Would it really be such a great capitulation to write a law that allows choice in instances of rape or incest? The point of writing the law, presumably, is to send a moral message to those not yet of reproductive age that abortion is wrong. It would seem that the law with exceptions would serve that purpose. However, apparently there are those who are so deluded as to believe that making a law will do something other than create a marketplace for illegal abortions.
What is even more puzzling to me is the total disregard for the immensely greater number of births that have occurred during whatever period is being used to count abortions. It would be impossible to call our culture a "culture of death" if people were to look at that number.
The "culture of death" was a
The "culture of death" was a lie. One more lie, in an every growing list of lies and deceptions that come from our bishops.
Here is one of the statitics that the antiabortionists and the bishops do not want you to see:
The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women[3,1] (Guttmacher Institute)
If I am remembering correctly, one of the bishops recently stated that there was no correlation between poverty and abortion. These statistics say exactly the opposite. One more lie.
As the poverty levels increase due to the declining economy, are we going to see an increase in the abortion for the first time in 25 years? If we do, will the bishops sieze the opportunity to blame the increase on the new administration?
Do you suppose any of the bishops will show enough integrity to admit that they must share in the responsiblity for this increase due to their support of the republican administrations that created the conditions that caused poverty to increase, and their it was their failure to denounce the sins of those administrations that led to the problem?
I doubt it. There is one thing we can always count on the bishops to do. LIE.
Will the lies ever stop? Will we ever see a day when the catholic church has leaders who dont violate the primary premise of our beliefs - "do not bear false witness"?
Are those bishops lying who
Are those bishops lying who actually believe the false information they are spreading? I think they just have no idea. Their emotional reaction to the idea of abortion is so consuming that there is no room for reality. I'm sure they have already decided that Obama is to blame for all future abortions.
On the other hand, I would bet there are a significant number of bishops who voted for Obama but don't have the nerve to admit it, let alone defend it. I'm wondering whether they aren't more to blame for letting this misinformation be spread when they believe it to be false.
When it comes right down to it, the bishops who are most outspoken on this topic are really only looking out for themselves. They want to be reassured that everyone believes abortion is wrong. It is more important than there actually being fewer abortions.
Is a person who believes he
Is a person who believes he was justified in killing his victim, guilty of murder?
Is a man who believes the woman "asked for it", guilty of rape?
Is a person who commits a crime "in the name of God", guilty of the crime?
Is the pedophile who believes he is helping the child, guilty of child molestation?
These bishops are highly educated, well versed in scriptures. My belief, and I believe there is ample evidence to support that belief, is that they know what they are saying is a lie, and they are choosing to ignore the truth because it doesnt forward their personal agendas. And yes, that makes them guilty of lying.
Over time, any of us, if we work at it hard enough, can make ourselves believe anything we want. Does that make the act any less wrong?
Well, if those people
Well, if those people actually believe they were justified in doing wrong, then they are not lying about what why they did it. However, what they did as a result of their delusion, is still criminal. It doesn't take a lot of looking to find the wrong that resulted from the delusions of certain bishops and their equally deluded followers.
Marie R.! At one point
Marie R.!
At one point the bishops/church stated that if you support Obama, you are complicit in murder! Considering that the Roe is on the books at the behest of the U.S. government, would it not follow that, the payment of income tax is support of Roe. I reason, "Pay taxes, Murder a child!" NO? Who's writing this stuff?
God loves us all! And we can just TRY!
James Edward