Who is it that Consecrates the Eucharist at Liturgy?
Dear James, no worries! I
Dear James, no worries! I have taken no offense; I think you have taken no liberties.
[As for appellations, the convention is to use "The Rev. Dr. (last name)" for written address; to use "Mother..." or "Father..." for spoken address OR, in the case of a PhD, "Dr...." I prefer simply to be called by my given name, Elaine, (having in mind Matthew 23:9).]
As for Eucharistic theology and ecclesiastical doctrine, your tradition and mine differ regarding the communion of the Eucharist. It's not so much a matter of a public/private dichotomy as a theological understanding of Who/how the Eucharist is celebrated. An early Anglican poet, John Donne wrote this way
He was the Word that spake it;
He took the bread and brake it;
and what that Word did make it;
I do believe and take it.
The Logos is the author of the 'holiness' of the Eucharist. The priests attending - for us that is the whole congregation assembled as the Body of Christ in the priesthood of all believers as well as the ordained celebrant - join in calling the Spirit (the epiclesis of the whole congregation). The celebrant who is the ordained priest consecrates the bread and wine in and as part of the Communion of people and Spirit. The Holy Communion IS the Eucharist - the joyful thanksgiving - of the people assembled as the worshiping community in the Real Presence of the Risen Christ Who also is present (really!) in the elements-as-sacrament of His Body and Blood; [sacrament is defined as: "an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible Grace."] In other words, we do not account for the transubstantiation as residing singularly in the words and actions of the priest-celebrant, but rather in the joyful thanksgiving of the assembled Body led in worship by the ordained clergy as well as in the change in the material elements.
Neither do we account for the reception of the sacrament as residing in a private individual alone. The Holy Communion is community-making and binding. For example, when we send the consecrated bread and wine to the hospitalized and homebound we do that with a formal blessing from the congregation and we typically hold those recipients in prayer as absent members of the community during the week at the Morning, Noonday, and Evening Prayers.
Having said this, it also is the case that only ordained clergy formally lead ('celebrate') the Eucharist in our tradition. Deacons may not consecrate the elements, nor are private 'house' communions without clergy recognized as a Eucharist.
As I said in my initial email response. We Episcopalians have a "via media" (between Rome and Vienna) regarding most of the fundamentals of our theology and doctrine. The chief sacramental theologian in our tradition is Richard Hooker, the sixteenth century Anglican priest who established in his LAWS, the foundations of our sacramental theology.
In a nutshell these are that Holy Communion is a developmental relationship that is both personal (NOT only 'private') and purposive. Three foundations support this theology:
* The Eucharist is the way in which continuing new life, established in Baptism, develops in the lives of the faithful, who are fed with the Body and Blood of Christ.
But this action is NOT exclusively corporeal. It includes PARTICIPATION. Hooker says: "The fruite of the Eucharist is the participation of the bodie and blood of Christ.... who thereby imparteth him selfe even his whole intire person as a mysticall head unto everie soule that receiveth him. . . ."[50] Christ commanded that this be done. This command is sufficient as is the continued presence of Christ in the Church and to the faithful by virtue of His command and promise. The miracle of compassion and love is the REAL participation of Christ in the life of His Body and Blood in the community of the faithful requires also our participation. This sacrament is efficacious by the grace of God and by virtue of the RELATIONSHIP of an ongoing Covenant - the New Covenant of Christ-with-us.
Hooker further says: " ... All thinges considered and compared with that successe, which truth hathe hitherto had, by so bitter conflictes with errours in this point, shall I wishe that men would more give them selves to meditate with silence what wee have by the sacrament, and lesse to dispute of the manner how?"
* The Body of Christ comprises, fundamentally, a relationship WITH Christ FOR A PURPOSE, which, as Jesus teaches, is the revelation of God in the world - it is a soteriological. Our ecclesiological orientation therefore focuses on sacrament as communal and participatory and, as part of a larger continuum: We are 'adopted' by Baptism and 'grow up' in community, and ACT as Christians. In short, being in/with/for Christ has a participatory direction: "that the sacrament becomes that which it is meant to be IN THE USE OF IT, as the faithful receive the body and blood of Christ, transforming them to participate ever more fully in Christ's life, death, and resurrection and continuing work in the world."
* Participation a mutual and PERSONAL (not 'private') encounter of God and human child. It is the fruit or grace: "that mutuall inward hold of which Christ hath us and wee of him". The Eucharist is reciprocal: on the one hand, there is the action of the Father in the Son through the Spirit, which is gratuitous, self-giving and, on the other hand, there is the faithful reception of the Father's gift. It is efficacious at both the personal and corporate levels for the children of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for your direct queries:
Is it "Presumption" on my part to assume that Christ should visit Himself, in His body and His blood, upon such as Me? Whatever the place? Whoever the attendants?"
I can't say what is right for you, dear James. What is considered 'presumption' is so varied from place to place - I think we all know in our hearts when and how we presume and so I leave this to you & God.
~~~~~~~~~
"'The words we say, the gestures we make; the manner and custom of our liturgical traditions, AND our essential theological foundations like Apostolic succession, the sacredness of the Trinity, the divine Lordship of Jesus - all of these comprise parts of an identity that together form the 'platform' upon which we stand that brings coherence to our religious 'personality'.' Here I conflict with the term "religious." To me, can't you just guess, that would imply a degree of duplicity, in that, one should posses or develop a "religious personality", as an adjunct to who he or she "really is," solely for those appointed,(self or otherwise), to monitor those things!"
No - I do not intend to use the phrase ' religious personality' as a cloak to put on and take off at a whim. That would seem also to me a kind of religious convenience if not duplicity. What I mean to say is that all traditions have a set of foundational beliefs. For us, this comprises centuries of Scripture, Reason, and Experience (sometimes called 'Tradition') that is promulgated in our Book of Common Prayer and our historical documents. These Foundations form the basis of our seeking the continuing revelation of God - the 'prism' of our sight. We recognize that others in our Anglican Communion have a variety of cultural and societal 'prisms' that condition their sight (e.g., the contending Muslim faith in most parts of Africa) but we have for five centuries insisted upon a corporate effort to hold differences in tension as we journey together under the Quadrilateral of our basic faith foundations that we warrant as the "inherent parts of (the) sacred deposit" of our faith that binds us in unity (NOT uniformity): "The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament as the revealed Word of God"; "The Nicene Creed as the sufficient statement of the Christian faith"; " the TWO sacraments of Baptism and the Supper of the Lord ministered with Christ's words of institutions and using the elements He ordained; and the Historic Episcopate. Within this foundation we seek the purpose of our faith. We struggle to hold in tension the way others seek their own.
As for who does or should 'monitor' the soul's seeking ... well, I hope we help each other rather than monitor and judge. Just imagine a world in which all the seekers sought the goodness of each other. WOW! Just imagine ...
The Rev. Dr. E. McCoy
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you... (Jn13:34)
Elaine, you quote: "Our
Elaine, you quote: "Our ecclesiological orientation therefore focuses on sacrament as communal and participatory and, AS PART OF A LARGER CONTINUUM" (Emphasis added). How illuminating!
I think what contributes to a generally and persistently cultured "religious" disconnection is failure to understand ourselves and Eucharist as inextricably linked to and in the "larger continuum", what is nature, the "supposition" of faith, of grace.
Divine Instance in nature is Divine Presence in the Sacrament of Nature, what is essentially Universal Eucharist, i.e., the transformation and transcendence of Self/ self into Other/ other. Thus, I find so much significance, so much Eucharistic connection, Divine/ human, in transformational Reality — in Symbiotic Evolution.
The "larger continuum" isn't merely the community of humankind but the cosmos, nature. We have a grossly inadequate sense of Eucharist, it seems to me, unless we join our consciousness to the whole cosmic/ natural continuum which is in perpetual transformation/ transfiguration in and through wave/ particle (spiritual/ material) dynamics.
From moment to moment, we are not now what we were a moment ago; nor does a status-quo ever obtain permanently anywhere. We are Eucharist in process, personally, socially, cosmically; what we are called to is "intentional" Eucharistic participation, every moment of our personal lifetimes — what the Mass commemorates, what Jesus calls all to celebrate — the "Sacrament of God Present".
http://www.secondenlightenment.org/THE%20SACRAMENT%20OF%20GOD%20PRESENT.pdf
Simple minds! This one is
Simple minds! This one is not trained to think objectively! It matters not to me what any "council","committee", priest, bishop, cardinal or pope says! What matters is what Christ said! He did not suffer and die on the cross for the apostles alone! Nor the priests, bishops cardinals and popes! By God! He died for us all! When He established the Eucharist, He did also for us all! He said, "Do this in commemoration of Me!" He did not say, "Now just y'all can do this thing I just showed you, now I gotta go suffer and die on the cross for just y'all!" The death and the life of Christ, was about ALL OF US! For all of US!
In the old testament God gave us a list of commandments! Straightforward and simple! Honor thy father and thy mother! No caveates, no disclaimers, no loopholes! JUST DO IT! The caveates, disclaimers and loopholes have come from those who would have US believe that they are the equal of Christ on earth! And I believe that if I, and one or more of my friends, (dangerous assumption! that I have friends!) should sit around with a loaf of good bread and a bottle of "reasonably" good California wine, and ask God to consecrate the bread and wine, as the body and blood of Christ our Lord, as He asked us to do, then it is done!
I have no biblical, canonical, theological, or ecumenical studies, on which to base this opinion! I honestly don't even kmow if they exist! It's just what I learned from Fr. Joe, and Sister Clara, Sister Helen, and Sister Genevieve, and Sister Margaret Mary!
'Where ever two or more of
'Where ever two or more of you gather in My name, there will I be also!" is that not "consecration" in and of itself? Your "faith" shall be your salvation! The nature of humanity, arrogance and greed, complicates and contaminates everything! Believe in God, as God! Trust in God, as God! Let God do, what God will do! Get out of His way!
I belive and trust that God will bless you all!
James Edward
I think an interesting way
I think an interesting way to look at this question is in a doomsday scenario of some kind. Say the world as we knew it ended, with one remaining enclave of catholics in a standing small town. All communications are shut off, although as people come together, attempts are being made to see if there is anyone else alive. Obviously, a difficult and long-term search in this scenario. Catholics continue to come to their blown-out church to meet each week, but there is no priest, and as far as anyone knows, no priests, bishops, or church as we know it left to contact. At first the community gathers in prayer, and, of course, to talk and share and support each other. The question rises early, then more insistently. What would Jesus have us do? Would we re-create the moment of the Eucharist? Would we appoint a leader? Would we re-start a broken chain of ordination? Or, would we sit there, with the remaining Bible and catechism and canon law and keep saying 'no' when others, with increasing need and desire, asked the question, 'shouldn't we begin again?'
Here is a question for all
Here is a question for all to ponder - is the eucharist consecrated merely because the priest said the magic words over it? Or, is it the intention of the priest and those present that creates the consecration?
I recently witnessed an event that appalled me. During morning mass, a visiting priest was blessing the host. His manner was very obviously NOT what it should have been.
The blessing went lalalalalalala the priest was elsewhere, I'm not even sure he knew what he was saying.
The attitude, mannerisms, facial expressions all spoke voluminously "lets do this and get it over with"
was the eucharist consecrated, or did the entire assembly receive something else?
In my theological
In my theological tradition, your question would be answered with a "both/and".
The words of institution said by the ordained priest together with the epiclesis AND the gathered community (for us, there can never be a 'private' Eucharist), as well as the use of appropriate species (bread and wine), are central parts of the Liturgy of the Table. [Likewise, The Liturgy of the Word follows prescribed scripture readings from the Revised Common Lectionary, that you, in the Roman church, also use as basis of your scripture readings and homiletic themes, I believe.]
The reason for the both/and of my answer to your question is that our sacramental theology, like all other parts of our theological tradition, emphasizes the incarnational aspect of life in/as the Body of Christ. The words we say, the gestures we make; the manner and custom of our liturgical traditions, AND our essential theological foundations like Apostolic succession, the sacredness of the Trinity, the divine Lordship of Jesus - all of these comprise parts of an identity that together form the 'platform' upon which we stand that brings coherence to our religious 'personality'. What we treasure for ourselves, we also extend to others. We take account of and revere others' manner of piety and so, for example, we invite all Baptized Christians to share the Table of the Lord, engage in pulpit exchanges, and common mission without demanding a great deal of conformity.
For the celebration of the Eucharist, the words are important but they DO NOT compete with the sacredness of the gathered community; NOR are the words inconsequential or standing in 'second place.' Rather the incarnate expression of the sacrament of the Holy Communion (the words, species, conduct, and custom) interacts with the particular, concrete community gathered in real time in a real place, together.
You see how the incarnation works both in establishing these boundaries as well as opening the revelation of God. God makes all things new in very real concrete ways for us as well as in the sacred mystery of the action given by God that 'surpasses human understanding". Like all of REAL LIFE, we understand our Eucharist to be the sacramental expression of the intersection of the immediate and the eternal; of the material and the sublime; of the particular and the universal: of the Emergent Kingdom of God.
in my own experience, I could no more vacate the 'place' of a Eucharistic blessings than I could slap an innocent child or an adored saint. I'm sorry that you witnessed what seemed like an attitude of indifference. I'm sorrier that one called to ordained ministry should have lost that which is of such shimmering beauty. But God is Good ALL the time and so we must believe that salvation is possible ALL the time, as is the choice to "turn around"...
The Rev. Dr. E. McCoy
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you... (Jn13:34)
I think that is a time when
I think that is a time when the experience is of the community making up for the inattention of a priest and thereby carrying on Christ's desire for us. We carry the attention, we give meaning--even though the experience of the moment was weakened by the celebrant. It is always the priest WITHIN the community who celebrates Eucharist.
Let's not forget the role of
Let's not forget the role of the Holy Spirit...The epiclesis is a key part of the Eucharistic Prayer and it is the Spirit who acts through the priest and the assembly to transform the bread and wine (and the assembled church) into the body and blood of Christ. "Lex orandi, Lex credendi" (The Law of Prayer is the Law of belief)
Roman Canon: Bless and approve our offering;
make it acceptable to you,
an offering in spirit and in truth.
Let it become for us
the body and blood of Jesus Christ,
your only Son, our Lord.
Eucharistic Prayer II: Let your Spirit come upon these gifts
to make them holy,
so that they may become for us
the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
E.P.III: And so, Father, we bring you these gifts.
We ask you to make them holy by the power of your Spirit,
that they may become the body + and blood of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ,
at whose command we celebrate this eucharist.
E.P. IV: Father, may this Holy Spirit sanctify these offerings.
Let them become for us the body and blood of Jesus Christ our Lord
LarryD, How many people in
LarryD, How many people in the Catholic Church Realize the debt they owe St. Athanasius? This is a "struggle" of historical consequence. While Arius lead a strong movement within the Church which, "denied the divinity of Christ and focused on the dissimilarity between the Father and Son. The Son was created and, hence, had a beginning unlike the eternal Father who always existed." This is the Church doctrine we would have inherited if NOT FOR Athanasius. What would that have done to The Holy Eucharist LarryD if the strong dominate Arius faction of the Catholic Church won out? How would we have celebrated Holy Communion today if it wasn't considered divine? Athanasius who was willing to suffer presecution and exile for more than 15 years is primarialy responsible for Our Nicean Creed. And this battle went on for hundreds of years. Thank God for Athanasius we have the divine Eucharist today.
Many of the great truths taught by Jesus were almost lost in these early compromises, but they yet slumber in this religion of paganized Christianity, which was in turn the Pauline version of the life and teachings of the Son of Man. And Christianity, even before it was paganized, was first thoroughly Hellenized. Christianity owes much, very much, to the Greeks. It was a Greek, from Egypt, who so bravely stood up at Nicaea and so fearlessly challenged this assembly that it dared not so obscure the concept of the nature of Jesus that the real truth of his bestowal might have been in danger of being lost to the world. This Greek's name was Athanasius, and but for the eloquence and the logic of this believer, the persuasions of Arius would have triumphed. God Bless You LarryD and all here. I'm not saying your answer is wrong LarryD, I'm just saying there's a lot more to it than meets the eye.
Athanasius
http://ecole.evansville.edu/glossary/athanasius.html
Athanasius (c 290-373 CE), regarded by many as the most important theologian of the fourth century, began his clerical career in 325 when he was ordained a deacon by Bishop Alexander of Alexandria. During the same year, he accompanied Alexander to the Council of Nicaea as his secretary and deacon. In 328, he was named the successor of Alexander, remaining bishop of Alexandria until his death in 373. However, of his 45 years of reign, Athanasius spent 15 years and 10 months in exile, because of his unpopular Nicene position in the Arian climate of the fourth-century Eastern empire. Most of Athanasius' time in exile was spent with other Egyptian monks or in Rome. While in exile, he wrote several works, many of which stress the significance of the incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ and how acts of God are seen through the faith of the Church and in the sacraments. Athanasius is widely regarded as the great defender of the faith of Nicaea against Arianism.
Heather A. Schumann
Arianism
Arianism, a Trinitarian doctrine promoted by Arius (c 250-336 CE), denied the divinity of Christ and focused on the dissimilarity between the Father and Son. The Son was created and, hence, had a beginning unlike the eternal Father who always existed. Arians believed the Son was subordinate to the Father; he earned his rank from participation in grace or adoption by God. Around 320, Arius's beliefs were questioned by Bishop Alexander of Alexandria. Later, Arius was excommunicated by the entire Egyptian episcopate. Athanasius, successor to Bishop Alexander, also protested against Arianism. Despite these setbacks, Arius gained support from Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius of Nicomedia during his travels to Palestine, Syria, and Asia Minor. The Arian controversy led to a serious division between the East and West. The Emperor Constantine succeeded in suppressing Arianism for a brief time by summoning the Council of Nicaea I (325). After Constantine, the popularity of Arianism rose again because of support from emperors Constantius II (337- 361) and Valens (364-378). After Valen's death, the threat of Arianism subsided with Theodosius, who summoned a council in Constantinople (381) that sealed the faith of Nicaea for all the Church.
Elise M. Bender
The Nicene Creed
The Nicene Creed concisely sums up the beliefs and theology of the Christian Church in a manner that can be used as a statement of faith, even today. Originally written to take a stand against Arianism at the Council of Nicaea in 325, it underwent subsequent revision at later councils. Nicaea was primarily concerned with the relationship between Jesus Christ and God, the Father. Where Arius advocated a subordinationist position, the council choose the word homoousios (meaning, "having the same being as") to characterize this relationship; Jesus Christ is "one in being with" the Father. Later, at the Council of Constantinople (381), the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Godhead came into question; there, the claim that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father was added. In 451, at the Council of Chalcedon, the ammended Nicene Creed was once again accepted as the true statement of the Christian faith. The final revision of the creed was made at the Council of Toledo (589) when the term filioque (meaning "and the Son") was officially added to the previous claim from Constantinople that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father. This alteration was made following an unofficial custom in the West (handed down to us from Augustine) of using the filioque clause in the creed. The Council of Toledo also declared that the Nicene Creed (as we know it today) should be professed by Christians at every mass.
Jennifer M. Brom
St. Athanasius
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02035a.htm
Saint Athanasius of Alexandria
http://saints.sqpn.com/sainta15.htm
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
This is the Church doctrine
This is the Church doctrine we would have inherited if NOT FOR Athanasius.
Actually, this is the doctrine we'd have if the Holy Spirit wasn't truly guiding the Church. Athanasius would never presume to take credit for preserving Church doctrine.
Hi Larry. God Bless You
Hi Larry. God Bless You brother.
You wrote:
"Actually, this is the doctrine we'd have if the Holy Spirit wasn't truly guiding the Church. Athanasius would never presume to take credit for preserving Church doctrine".
Are you suggesting that The Holy Spirit WASN'T truly guiding the Church when the Church adopted Arius' position and then the Holy Spirit WAS guiding the Church when the church adopted Athanasius' position.
Isn't the Holy Spirit always guiding the Church regardless of the position the Church takes? I mean that's my whole point Larry. Church Doctrine changes according to the Church's capacity to understanding the Holy Spirit's Guidance. And since numerous and frequent changes to church Doctrine and Dogma are constantly taking place in it’s “development� we much keep our minds open and discerning concerning new spiritual understandings of Church Doctrine and Dogma INCLUDING but not limited too previous opinions that were once determined NOT to be valid Doctrine or Dogma. Like that of Athanasius.
I’m sure you are right about Athanasius never presuming to take credit not for preserving Church Doctrine because that’s not what he did, he was behind the spiritual understanding that CHANGED Church Doctrine from Arius’ position to that which he was sure was the TRUTH, that Christ was divine and divinely present in the Eucharist. And thank s to the Holy Spirit for providing them Athanasius and His supporters for withstanding the persecution meted out to them by the CHURCH until the Church changed position.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
A general response in
A general response in support of the ordained celebrant being the one who consecrates...
Isn't that the point of the priest being “in persona Christi�? He says the words of consecration for Jesus. It is the one place in the Eucharistic Prayer where the priest uses the word “I�. In all other instances he says “we�. (At least as far as I can remember as I don’t have a sacramentary here to look it up.)
The action of the Eucharist, as with all sacraments, is the action of Christ. But that action comes through the bodily actions and cooperation of the ministers who have been called and appointed to do the work.
To support your answer,
To support your answer, b7m8, it also requires the proper form and matter. In this case, the words of institution (form) and bread and wine (matter).
I'm guessing that you
I'm guessing that you haven't really dealt with the Addai and Mari decision?
I had never heard of the
I had never heard of the Addai and Mari decision - learn something new everyday. It's very interesting. If the Vatican says it's okay, then it's okay, regardless if I haven't really dealt with it before. Doesn't change the fact that it's still the celebrant who consecrates the Eucharist...
But it does challenge the
But it does challenge the heavy-handed reliance on "proper form and matter", which is why I responded where I did.
On the contrary, it is the
On the contrary, it is the Spirit who consecrates the Eucharist............
I had to look it up. Here's
I had to look it up. Here's what I found:
Church of the East's Practice
The anaphora of Addai and Mari has been in continuous use in the Church of the East since ancient times without the words of institution. The rite seems to have derived from Edessa, and the outline of the current form can be traced as far back as the time of the Patriarch Mar Isho-yab III in the seventh century. In the course of the anaphora, prayers of praise known as "Ghanatha" (from the verb "ghan," bow) are said in a low voice by the celebrant. Hymns by Saint Ephrem and others are often sung during the communion. Traditional use has called for a section of dough from the eucharistic bread to be saved from week to week, not as reserve sacrament but as leaven for the next week's bread.
Current Roman Catholic Position
In its pure form, the anaphora does not include the Words of Institution.[1] This raised ecumenical concerns, since the Western tradition of the Roman Catholic Church considered the Words of Institution to be essential to the validity of the sacred mystery. Nevertheless, the Roman Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith concluded on January 17, 2001 that the Anaphora of Addai and Mari can be considered valid. Three reasons were given for this. First, the Anaphora of Addai and Mari dates back to the early Church. Secondly, the Church of the East has otherwise preserved the orthodox faith in regard to the Eucharist and Holy Orders. And finally, though the Words of Institution do not appear in a coherent way, they are present in a dispersed way through prayers of praise, thanksgiving and intercession. What this last point would seem to mean is that the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari is a reenactment of Christ's Mystical Supper, even without the Words of Institution.
Though this decision by the Roman Catholic Church is not irreformable, its ecumenical importance should not be underestimated. Because of this decision, it is thought by some that there are some circumstances in which the Church can accept an Epiclesis in place of the Words of Institution. Others maintain, however, that this decision affirms that the Words of Institution are present in an implicit way, still regarding the Words of Institution as the essential form of the Sacrament.
Chaldean Catholics, who use this rite, traditionally have inserted the Words of Institution into the Anaphora; they are now beginning to cease adding the interpolation.
from Wikipedia
Col55 asks, Was the
Col55 asks, Was the eucharist consecrated even though the priest was acting in a mechanical and irreverant manner?
If so, then wouldnt that suggest that we have relegated Holy Communion into the realm of magic spells and witchcraft?
Did the entire assembly receive Holy Communion or something else?
From a prior post I find my answer,
The first and principal effect of the Holy Eucharist is union with Christ by love (Decr. pro Armenis: adunatio ad Christum), which union as such does not consist in the sacramental reception of the Host, but in the spiritual and mystical union with Jesus by the theological virtue of love. Christ Himself designated the idea of Communion as a union love:
No matter who the Consecrating Ministrant is The Eucharist can ONLY be Consecrated for each ONE of us personally By Christ's Love for us and Our reciprocal Love for Him in all three persons, Blessed Trinity. IMHO.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
LarryD wrote; "But why is it
LarryD wrote;
"But why is it so important to make the consecration about "us" instead of focusing on the "Him" who instituted the Sacrament during the Last Supper? Can you give me any examples of saints who believed as you do?"
In response to AnnieO who wrote:
"So, why don't you name what document you're consulting (I'm guessing maybe just one?).."
And she was right he did just name one “the Catechism of the Catholic Church�, while ignoring the historical Church evidence I presented prior to his post, of the Church’s changes from what Christ and the Apostles instituted and what the Chruch tried to monopolize. Communion.
I find it incredible that LarryD ignores the fact that for almost 400 years after Christ and all the Apostles established Communion as AnnieO and many “awakened Catholics� like her believe in, where the laity, women and all Christians willing to take a leading roll in their faith to consecrate and administer communion as meals in there houses. As they where taught by the Jesus, the Apostles and the Christian leaders that followed them consecrating the bread and wine just as the priests do today through “the grace of Christ“. Through Christ we are Loved and Saved. And in Christ‘s Love we Commune. Wake up LarryD. Christ loves you and me as much as anyone else. And NOTHING will come between us and His Love. It would be sad indeed if we denied the rich spiritual lives lived by those early Christians as examples to us of what spirit-led lives mean. Even unto dying for what they so strongly believed in because they knew their lives in Christ were now eternal.
As we again evolve and reform out of the oppressive and restrictive pressures applied by the Church meant to manipulate and control the followers of Christ for centuries, we can now encourage and embrace our Church to recognized what all those Saints and Christians of the early church recognized, the Joy and Love of celebrating the Communion of Christ in their house, their communities, among friends and families and their Christian brothers and sisters. Men and women, laity or ordained, Christ gift was for ALL. And it still is BUT we’re just waking up again to that wonderful truth that is preserved for us in the Church’s History. Please don’t ignore such a Life Saving Truth LarryD.
In Christ’s Love may we remain brothers and sisters in GOD. Peace be with you LarryD and all here. May God guide our Spiritual learning and our spiritual lives.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
joer - actually, I didn't
joer - actually, I didn't ignore anything. Let's get back to the original question: "Who Is Is That Consecrates The Eucharist in the Liturgy?"
Yes, I cited one source, the Catechism, which is compiled from Scripture, past councils and teachings of the Church Fathers. I responded directly to her, stating that if she wants additional references, I'd be happy to provide some, but please give me some time to do so. Why there is such acrimony towards the CCC, I don't understand, since the majority of conciliar references are from the Second Vatican Council anyway. The CCC doesn't ignore Church History - it draws from Church History.
Here's the Catholic Encyclopedia exercpt from the same portion that you cited, but didn't highlight: "Scripturally considered, the necessity of a special priesthood with the power of validly consecrating is derived from the fact that Christ did not address the words, "Do this", to the whole mass of the laity, but exclusively to the Apostles and their successors in the priesthood; hence the latter alone can validly consecrate. It is evident that tradition has understood the mandate of Christ in this sense and in no other."
In addition, for the first 400 years of the Church, it was illegal to be a Christian. The Roman Empire arrested, tortured, and brutally murdered any Christian they could find. Of course they celebrated Mass in their homes, and in the catacombs, in order to survive! That's historical fact. And there are Catholics today in some places where worship has to be done in secret - Saudi Arabia is one place - where priests are transported in secret so that Mass can be celebrated.
I don't know what "life saving Truth" I'm supposedly ignoring here, but what I'm not ignoring is that I have no power to consecrate the Eucharist. Yes, we worship as community during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. yes, we gather as the Body of Christ to partake of his body, blood, soul and divinity. Yes, Jesus loves all of us, and nothing can separate us from His love (except our sin, like pride, lust, fornication, etc).But I do not, nor does any other non-ordained member of the Church, have the power to consecrate the Eucharist.
As to your other comments regarding the "the oppressive and restrictive pressures applied by the Church meant to manipulate and control the followers of Christ", I have no idea what that has to do with this conversation. Sounds like you have an axe to grind.
Peace and God's blessings to you as well.
Larry, lets get real here
Larry, lets get real here ... the only reason that priest consecrate the eucharist is that the magisterial authorities say that is the way it is has to be in THEIR church. The scriptures do not tell us that, only the magisterial authority.
I guarantee you, that ANYONE, ANYONE who acts faithfully and reverently in the person of Christ, can effectively consecrate the eucharist. That is what the early church taught us. That is what the magisterial authorities do NOT want us to know. This issue is nothing more than a way to control the laity, nothing more than a way to maintain power for the clergy.
The same Holy Spirit that the priest aligns with during the blessing, is the same one that each of us align with each time we pray in faith. There is nothing special about the priest as a priest, that is not equally special about each member of the laity.
In fact, after the performance I witnessed last week, most of the laity would have done a better job of it. No member of the laity would ever give such a pathetic performance as the one I witnessed. Wearing a white robe and reciting a magic incantation with the same attitude as one has when cleaning barnyard mud off of their shoes does not bless the eucharist.
Yes, I am angry. Communion is something I hold sacred and precious. When I see it perveted, regardless of reason, especially by one who of the clergy, YES, I GET ANGRY. Perversion of Holy Communion by anyone for any reason is unacceptable. When a priest is unable to be present in that moment, with the appropriate reverance, it is time for him to step down.
LarryD, it seems to me you
LarryD, it seems to me you are missing a very important point in your rush to incriminate NCR.
According to the New Advent Home > Catholic Encyclopedia
The Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm
You can see the valid Minister of Consecration has changed over time. At one time in the early Christian Church BOTH WOMAN with “priestly powers� as well as “every layman was qualified, as the appointed representative of the faithful, to consecrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist�.
The minister of the Eucharist
The Eucharist being a permanent sacrament, and the confection (confectio) and the reception (susceptio) thereof being separated from each other by an interval of time, the minister may be and in fact is twofold: (a) the minister of consecration and (b) the minister of administration.
(a) The minister of consecration
In the early Christian Era the Peputians, Collyridians, and Montanists attributed priestly powers even to women (cf. Epiphanius, De hær., xlix, 79); and in the Middle Ages the Albigenses and Waldenses ascribed the power to consecrate to every layman of upright disposition. Against these errors the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) confirmed the ancient Catholic teaching, that "no one but the priest [sacerdos], regularly ordained according to the keys of the Church, has the power of consecrating this sacrament". Rejecting the hierarchical distinction between the priesthood and the laity, Luther later on declared, in accord with his idea of a "universal priesthood" (cf. 1 Peter 2:5), that every layman was qualified, as the appointed representative of the faithful, to consecrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
BUT the real Consecration of the Eucharist, “is union with Christ by love (Decr. pro Armenis: adunatio ad Christum), which union as such does not consist in the sacramental reception of the Host, but in the spiritual and mystical union with Jesus by the theological virtue of love.� The REAL consecration in the Sacrament of Holy Communion doesn’t come with the de facto consecration of the host by a priest or anybody else, But in the Union of Love the we Establish Spiritually and mystically with Our Savior and Our God.
Christ consecrates the us and the Sacrament. That consecration (of us and the host) is the "grace of the sacrament" bestowed upon it and us by Christ. That is it’s and OUR saving Grace.
The doctrine of the Church regarding the effects or the fruits of Holy Communion centres around two ideas: (a) the union with Christ by love and (b) the spiritual repast of the soul. Both ideas are often verified in one and same effect of Holy Communion.
(a) The union with Christ by love
The first and principal effect of the Holy Eucharist is union with Christ by love (Decr. pro Armenis: adunatio ad Christum), which union as such does not consist in the sacramental reception of the Host, but in the spiritual and mystical union with Jesus by the theological virtue of love. Christ Himself designated the idea of Communion as a union love: "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh blood, abideth in me, and I in him" (John 6:57). St. Cyril of Alexandria (Hom. in Joan., IV, xvii) beautifully represents this mystical union as the fusion of our being into that of the God-man, as "when melted wax is fused with other wax". Since the Sacrament of Love is not satisfied with an increase of habitual love only, but tends especially to fan the flame of actual love to an intense ardor, the Holy Eucharist is specifically distinguished from the other sacraments, and hence it is precisely in this latter effect that Francisco Suárez, recognizes the so-called "grace of the sacrament", which otherwise is so hard to discern. It stands to reason that the essence of this union by love consists neither in a natural union with Jesus analogous to that between soul and body, nor in a hypostatic union of the soul with the Person of the Word, nor finally in a pantheistical deification of the communicant, but simply in a moral but wonderful union
God Bless You LarryD and AnnieD and all here. I hope you appreciate the profundity of this sharing. You often present things as black and white and forget that these understandings of consecration and union of Love with Christ, have evolved over time through the great minds of assent and dissention of the Doctors of the Church.
Furthermore LarryD and AnnieD, they will continue to evolve, long after we passed on in our journey in becoming one with God.
May God guide Us and His Church in the evolution of our understanding of His and ONLY HIS Absolute Truth. Amen.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
When we say at the Easter
When we say at the Easter Vigil (as we light the Pascal Candle, which is a symbol of Christ--Light of the World), "Christ yesterday, today and forever" we mean that Christ's action continues on in human history and into eternity (although I am not going to presume on Christ's actions in eternity). In the Jewish mind (and Jesus and his disciples were Jewish), the action around the Passover table was a cycle, not the straight line of events that the Western mind sees it. In other words, those who gather to celebrate the Passover--are the same people who were present at the first Passover---they share in the promise made to them by God.
We, of the new and eternal covenant, made by Christ's presence and by his words, "This is my Body,....This is my Blood....Do this in memory of me" are also the same people to whom Christ included as participants around his table. Our faces may have changed over the centuries, from the ones first gathered there, but
we are his---the sheep of his flock. His promises (as the Psalms state) 'last from age to age for thousands of generations'.
We, people and celebrant gather around the altar to recall Who is in our presence. If and when a time comes when there are not enough priests to celebrate---the people will gather and together pronounce those words--- (hey, it is already happening in some parts of the world--no priests available---). And is Jesus there with his people? ABSOLUTELY! Jesus will not abandon his people. Again from the psalms, "I myself will shepherd them, says the Lord."
"We, of the new and eternal
"We, of the new and eternal covenant..." Indeed! What a joy and amazing Grace is that!! How can so many be so blind to the abundance of compassion found in that reality. And yet, isn't it an additional grace to read, and hear, and know all of you who make it so.
The Rev. Dr. E. McCoy
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you... (Jn13:34)
How can so many be so
How can so many be so blind?"
It is a testament to the indoctrination that begins before children have the ability to discern the truth for themselves. That is the purpose of indoctrination, not to teach, but to prevent them from asking the questions than cant be answered when they reach maturity.
A similar phenomenon was witnessed with the Japanese during the early 20th century. During the invasions of the islands, entire populations killed their families and committed suicide because they were indoctrinated by their leaders early in childhood to obey without question.
I suspect that the large number of catholics who have left and continue to leave the church are the ones who managed somehow to break through the indoctrination and see the truth. What is interesting is how many of them say the same thing .... they left because they realized that the church had lied to them.
Hey Col, Good to here from
Hey Col, Good to here from you.
I believe the Truth is worth sharing and embracing among all regardless of denomination. So Far the Catholic Church in my time has allow me the latitude for progression. There's just those who prefer to maintain things the way they are or were. They are afraid of change. I found the indoctrination works to a certain point and then you need to find deeper truths and they are even found in our church History but you have to dig out the truths that have been forgotten that are coming back to life. Living again in our living faith. Our static faith of indoctrination now becomes our living Spirit-led Faith that guides our lives.
Bless You Col and all here.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
The Blessed Eucharist as a
The Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm
1 Peter 2:5), that every layman was qualified, as the appointed representative of the faithful, to consecrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist. ...
The doctrine of the Church regarding the effects or the fruits of Holy Communion centres around two ideas: (a) the union with Christ by love and (b) the spiritual repast of the soul. Both ideas are often verified in one and same effect of Holy Communion.
(a) The union with Christ by love
The first and principal effect of the Holy Eucharist is union with Christ by love (Decr. pro Armenis: adunatio ad Christum), which union as such does not consist in the sacramental reception of the Host, but in the spiritual and mystical union with Jesus by the theological virtue of love. Christ Himself designated the idea of Communion as a union love: "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh blood, abideth in me, and I in him" (John 6:57). St. Cyril of Alexandria (Hom. in Joan., IV, xvii) beautifully represents this mystical union as the fusion of our being into that of the God-man, as "when melted wax is fused with other wax". Since the Sacrament of Love is not satisfied with an increase of habitual love only, but tends especially to fan the flame of actual love to an intense ardor, the Holy Eucharist is specifically distinguished from the other sacraments, and hence it is precisely in this latter effect that Francisco Suárez, recognizes the so-called "grace of the sacrament", which otherwise is so hard to discern. It stands to reason that the essence of this union by love consists neither in a natural union with Jesus analogous to that between soul and body, nor in a hypostatic union of the soul with the Person of the Word, nor finally in a pantheistical deification of the communicant, but simply in a moral but wonderful union with Christ by the bond of the most ardent charity. Hence the chief effect of a worthy Communion is to a certain extent a foretaste of heaven, in fact the anticipation and pledge of our future union with God by love in the Beatific Vision. He alone can properly estimate the precious boon which Catholics possess in the Holy Eucharist, who knows how to ponder these ideas of Holy Communion to their utmost depth. The immediate result of this union with Christ by love is the bond of charity existing between the faithful themselves as St. Paul says: "For we being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:17). And so the Communion of Saints is not merely an ideal union by faith and grace, but an eminently real union, mysteriously constituted, maintained, and guaranteed by partaking in common of one and the same Christ.
The minister of the Eucharist
The Eucharist being a permanent sacrament, and the confection (confectio) and the reception (susceptio) thereof being separated from each other by an interval of time, the minister may be and in fact is twofold: (a) the minister of consecration and (b) the minister of administration.
(a) The minister of consecration
In the early Christian Era the Peputians, Collyridians, and Montanists attributed priestly powers even to women (cf. Epiphanius, De hær., xlix, 79); and in the Middle Ages the Albigenses and Waldenses ascribed the power to consecrate to every layman of upright disposition. Against these errors the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) confirmed the ancient Catholic teaching, that "no one but the priest [sacerdos], regularly ordained according to the keys of the Church, has the power of consecrating this sacrament". Rejecting the hierarchical distinction between the priesthood and the laity, Luther later on declared, in accord with his idea of a "universal priesthood" (cf. 1 Peter 2:5), that every layman was qualified, as the appointed representative of the faithful, to consecrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
My question is, will the
My question is, will the National Catholic Reporter ever get around to telling the 53% of respondents (as of the time I wrote this comment) who answered incorrectly what the correct answer is? Will the NCR take the time to explain and show what the Church teaches, or will it leave the majority of its respondents in ignorance?
LarryD~ This is a discussion
LarryD~ This is a discussion cafe, hosted by NCR not a didactic journalistic exercise. If you or anyone else wishes to quote chapter and verse the hosts have given considerable latitude in that regard. (not Dennis Coday)
There's a one right answer?
There's a one right answer? I'm guessing you've been cherry-picking your documents! We belong to a faith community rich in diverse language over two millenia to approach anything we might want to talk about. So, why don't you name what document you're consulting (I'm guessing maybe just one?)..
As the Catechism of the
As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states in paragraph 1411 "Only validly ordained priests can preside at the Eucharist and consecrate the bread and the wine so that they become the Body and Blood of the Lord." Despite our being a priestly people, unless we're ordained by a Bishop, the laity have no power to consecrate the Eucharist. So yes, there is only one right answer.
The Catechism draws from the teachings of the Church, spanning the two millenia. But if you want me to cite other Church documents and teachings from the Church Fathers, I'll do so. It may take me some time, so please be patient.
But why is it so important to make the consecration about "us" instead of focusing on the "Him" who instituted the Sacrament during the Last Supper? Can you give me any examples of saints who believed as you do?
There are a couple of things
There are a couple of things that I'm sure our leadership would prefer that we not recognize and understand.
In several scriptures Jesus said "When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, ..."
In John 14:12 Jesus said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do"
According to the words of Jesus, all the works He did, we are to do as well.
I dont see anything in the scripture that says "except consecrating the euchrist"
This is why this experience
This is why this experience is so valuable to me. I must have read that hundreds of times and yet never SEEN it, never really understood it. God bless you for opening my eyes.
Actually, if you read far
Actually, if you read far enough, I'm guessing you will start to understand that there is language there in those two millenia that suggest that the celebrant is acting within the community of believers, just as the pope can only speak infallibly WITHIN the community of the church, and most specifically (although not exclusively) within the voice of the bishops of the church. Ordination is only invested in individuals in the name of the community of believers, not as a sect of the empowered and privileged individual men.
AnnieO, you wrote:
AnnieO, you wrote: "Ordination is only invested in individuals in the name of the community of believers, not as a sect of the empowered and privileged individual men."
What does this mean exactly? I thought Holy Orders is a sacrament granted to men that have answered God's call, and have a true vocation to the priesthood. It's not a right that anyone can claim. As a married man, I accept that I can't be a priest. So please explain your statement. Thanks!
Peace and God's blessings!
but Larry as a married man
but Larry as a married man you CAN be a priest.....look at all the MARRIED Anglican priests that change their denomination to Roman Catholicism and are accepted by the Vatican to function as Roman Catholic priests..........
The Apostles were married
The Apostles were married weren't they?
Well, I agree enough that
Well, I agree enough that orders is a sacrament of the church, granted to men. I make a presumption that they are answering God's call also. But I would not want to stake the meaning of ordination on whether a man has a "true" vocation to the priesthood. I'm not sure what that means, but I do make the presumption. Although once a person knows a fair number of priests, I think most people understand that there are many reasons men seek priesthood, which may or may not constitute a "true" vocation in a person's personal assessment; I'll leave that mostly to God. I guess it raises some issues with priests who are pedophiles, whether God really meant them to be in such a position in life. But I'll leave that be here also.
I don't have time right now to do a lot of searching of documents, but I think if you read church documents, you will certainly find that what I said is church teaching. The priesthood is part of the Christian community, not a sect that lives on its own, just as you will find that the pope's infallibility resides only within the context of the church community, most explictly, the bishops. I'm not sure how to explain it more without going to documents, but I'm not sure what you don't understand. In other words, do you see ordination as something that exists only in the persona of each bishop that sacramentalizes the ordination of the next priest, and could continue to endlessly pass that on without the church community? At some point that decision always comes back to the community. The church has always taught (i'm perhaps older than you) that orders takes place within the community and for the service of the community. Jesus never instituted a temple priesthood or whatever you might call such a sect. I'm not sure what you think, so I don't really understand what's complicated or strange about traditional church teaching. It was centuries before the concept current in the church was even formalized to approximate what it is now. At first there were presbyters, who were not like the present priesthood, but something between a priest and a bishop, I guess. I am not sure where we don't connect, but I'm thinking it's just buzzwords that get conflict going rather than something else.
AnnieO, thanks for your
AnnieO, thanks for your answer. It's difficult to have a real conversation in this type of venue because of the time lag between posts. I agree - the priesthood is not a sect, but was instituted by Christ to serve the Church's members - primarily through distribution of the sacraments and by living holy lives. So once again, thanks for the fuller answer. I didn't want to presume anything by your response.
LarryD, it seems to me you
LarryD, it seems to me you are missing a very important point in your rush to incriminate NCR.
According to the New Advent Home > Catholic Encyclopedia
The Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm
You can see the valid Minister of Consecration has changed over time. At one time in the early Christian Church BOTH WOMAN with “priestly powers� as well as “every layman was qualified, as the appointed representative of the faithful, to consecrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist�.
The minister of the Eucharist
The Eucharist being a permanent sacrament, and the confection (confectio) and the reception (susceptio) thereof being separated from each other by an interval of time, the minister may be and in fact is twofold: (a) the minister of consecration and (b) the minister of administration.
(a) The minister of consecration
In the early Christian Era the Peputians, Collyridians, and Montanists attributed priestly powers even to women (cf. Epiphanius, De hær., xlix, 79); and in the Middle Ages the Albigenses and Waldenses ascribed the power to consecrate to every layman of upright disposition. Against these errors the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) confirmed the ancient Catholic teaching, that "no one but the priest [sacerdos], regularly ordained according to the keys of the Church, has the power of consecrating this sacrament". Rejecting the hierarchical distinction between the priesthood and the laity, Luther later on declared, in accord with his idea of a "universal priesthood" (cf. 1 Peter 2:5), that every layman was qualified, as the appointed representative of the faithful, to consecrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
BUT the real Consecration of the Eucharist, “is union with Christ by love (Decr. pro Armenis: adunatio ad Christum), which union as such does not consist in the sacramental reception of the Host, but in the spiritual and mystical union with Jesus by the theological virtue of love.� The REAL consecration in the Sacrament of Holy Communion doesn’t come with the de facto consecration of the host by a priest or anybody else, But in the Union of Love the we Establish Spiritually and mystically with Our Savior and Our God.
Christ consecrates the us and the Sacrament. That consecration (of us and the host) is the "grace of the sacrament" bestowed upon it and us by Christ. That is it’s and OUR saving Grace.
The doctrine of the Church regarding the effects or the fruits of Holy Communion centres around two ideas: (a) the union with Christ by love and (b) the spiritual repast of the soul. Both ideas are often verified in one and same effect of Holy Communion.
(a) The union with Christ by love
The first and principal effect of the Holy Eucharist is union with Christ by love (Decr. pro Armenis: adunatio ad Christum), which union as such does not consist in the sacramental reception of the Host, but in the spiritual and mystical union with Jesus by the theological virtue of love. Christ Himself designated the idea of Communion as a union love: "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh blood, abideth in me, a




Rev. Dr. Elaine,
Rev. Dr. Elaine,
Forgive me, if I have "taken liberties" with the apellation! My intent, here, is not smart assedness. I find myself, at this ripe age, to be filled with questions. And reticent to pose those questions to those whom have failed my trust in the past. I read, and sometimes understand, much of what you post here.
On this question, I find myself, not so much confused, as in conflict! In my ignorance, I had never considered that there is a doctrinal prohibition against "a private Eucharist." The sacrament of the Eucharist has always seemed, to me, to be extremely private! Even at a "public" communion, those who are not sufficiently "prepared" to receive the Host, are not about to "publish" their guilt! (To wit, Mr. Lindsey's offer to patent the "Gasometer" to prevent such occurances.) The proper state of acceptance being private between God and my self.
Is it "Presumption" on my part to assume that Christ should visit Himself, in His body and His blood, upon such as Me? Whatever the place? Whoever the attendants?
"The words we say, the gestures we make; the manner and custom of our liturgical traditions, AND our essential theological foundations like Apostolic succession, the sacredness of the Trinity, the divine Lordship of Jesus - all of these comprise parts of an identity that together form the 'platform' upon which we stand that brings coherence to our religious 'personality'." Here I conflict with the term "religious." To me, can't you just guess, that would imply a degree of duplicity, in that, one should posses or develop a "religious personality", as an adjunct to who he or she "really is," solely for those appointed,(self or otherwise), to monitor those things!
Excuse me! I had to check dinner, (blackeyed peas and pork ribs) and had a slight mess to care for. I returned and searched desperately. (my ex wife, and best friend, stills contends that I never found an Easter egg, and she's pretty much right) I may have missed it but I find no mention of the belief of the recipient/participant and it occured to me that, that would be part and parcel of "sufficient prepartion" Should the recipient/participant have the faith in his heart to believe that consecration has taken place, for me, it is no one's but Gods, to say that it has not!
Sincerely, I mean no disrespect. There are so many things that I just don't know!
God bless you andyours!
James Edward
"in my own experience, I could no more vacate the 'place' of a Eucharistic blessings than I could slap an innocent child or an adored saint."
What, pray tell, would prompt the slapping of a "guilty child" or and "unadored" saint?