Obama and abortion

Wow, a life boat of christian sanity in this turbid ocean of hellish insanity. Throw me a rope. Wait, Jesus already did.

http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com

That was your BRIGHT idea!!!!
What's wrong with children? Childbirth? Life?

Hey now, cut me some slack here!

I covered that option:

If the woman gets married, then she gets to keep the stipend
for having children within the sacrement of marriage

I guess I can't rate you anymore, but I like the plan!

Wow, Thomas' perspective is broadening beyond single issue platitudes. The spirit of the new regime is working already!

You're right Brother Thomas. Let me join your prayer in saying:

"May the good Lord lead him in prudence, and in wisdom, in his work in the coming years."

And I pray that we also as a country united in God's Peace and Love for one another, be open to that leading!

The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will

Thomas, we have seen what eight years of your pro-life candidate and President GW Bush has brought us! We saw how they handled the power! We have seen how over twenty years of Republican rule have had an affect on the overall moral climate in America and around the world. But, do you see yet the carnage that was left by a ruler on the side of corporations with deregulation to our economy? The affect of war mongering and an unjust invasion of Iraq? It would seem that you do not see, and you were willing to continue with such an immoral system, lopsided in favor of the wealthy and greedy who profit from war.

Compare life as it was eight years ago to what exists now in this country, and you'll see that what is left for this democratic administration is a disaster on many fronts. I hope you will engage yourself in positive activity to try and make this a prosperous world and a peaceful world. Prosperous in grace, wisdom, and love. Prosperous in food, shelter and education and helping people to become the best that they can be with their God-given gifts. If America is in economic need, the need will be felt most readily by those who are the poorest. So far, from what I've read of your comments, you've not demonstrated the capacity or will to do anything except harp, gripe and complain about others you deem inferior or sinful. It also seems from your comment a subliminal desire on your part to see this administration fail. If that be the case, which I don't believe it will be, will you have the objectivity and perspective to really see and understand the truth for the reason for any failure?

We all bear the full responsibility for what happens to a certain extent, despite how anyone voted. GW Bush is still in charge. Hopefully he won't ruin it more before Obama takes office in January.

Thomas, the failed economy, endless wars, escalating abortions, deteriorating moral climate of america (and within the clergy as well) are the by products of decades of republican leadership. We already see, and we see it all very clearly. We also see that many of the bishops wanted more of the same immorality for the country and for themselves. Obviously, you also wanted 4 more years of the same.

That is why we voted for Obama. We did not want to see 4 more years of the same immorality destroying what was left of a once great nation.

Did it ever occur to you that if God wanted McCain in the presidency, McCain would have won?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the Obama victory was divine intervention?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps God caused the Obama victory as a way of saying that the one-issue is not as important RIGHT NOW as the greater whole?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the Obama victory is God's way of telling us that the church leadership is not following divine guidance?

One thing we need to keep in mind when we hear these things ...

The bishops have lied to us before and they continue to lie to us

Finn is lying to us again

Our salvation is not tied to one vote in one election in one year
Our salvation is tied to how much love and how much hate we have in our hearts
every minute of every day of our lives

One event will not spoil our salvation as Finn etal are trying to make us beleive

Finn is lying
Finn is unrepentant about his sin of lying
Finn is the one whose salvation is in danger
Finn backed McCain
The McCain campaign stands for hate and violence
By his own words Finn is a participant in hate mongering and propogation of violence
Finn attempted to misuse his authority to cause others to share his sin
Finns sins are legion, and continue to grow

The one whose salvation is in question is the one who is making the most noise

A dear friend of mine who passed in 2006, from her second bout with ovarian cancer, whose maiden name was Abramson had a sign in her kitchen that said, "You can always tell a Finn!
But you can't tell him much!"

Sharing that today makes me think of her and I thought I' share it !

James Edward

Someone asked, "How do you know if Finn is lying?" The person he asked replied, "Was his mouth open?"

God Bless Finn and guide him Unity with the Humble Advancement of goodness and rightousness for the positive progressive betterment of humanity. Amen.

The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will

Frannie,

For certain, God was and is listening to the many Catholics these days who are distorting both conscience and Church teaching to try to justify voting for a pro-abortion candidate.

Since when is the IRS above the right to free speech? Our freedom to speak is from the Constitution. Is a mere government tax agency above the Constitution?

Lest we forget~ One can not but admire and relish that American(US) capacity to unite behind a President once elected, even after a divisive campaign. This election in particular with its many-faceted implications for the many-faceted and interrelated issues that face the new regime at home and abroad and which constituted the 'hot-buttons' and elicited the venom, hate, twisting of fact and truth and principle with little or no respect for fact, truth or principle.

The vision and hope of November 4 spills over then and will enjoy a period of grace when most of the opposition, even (some of) the most venemous, have good things to say and maybe,feel and mean. Lest we forget, the perversion of soul and mind and heart which were the roots of venom as opposed to reasoned opinion, do not evaporate. They remain where they were to be dealt with and healed or to lurk in that dark, furious silence that only festers and awaits an opportunity....

Absolutely not. The right of free speech trumps all others. However, the right of free speech does not confer tax-free status. In the reverse of the old adage, ya makes ya choice and ya pays your money. My being taxed has never impeded my ability to speak my mind (QED) and I trust the church will continue to do so as she renders to Caesar.

James, your response seems to suggest - clarify if I am reading you wrongly - that every person who is dead is "equal". Do you actually believe this? Is a mass murderer who was lawfully executed "equal" to an innocent person who was unlawfully murdered? Does the common fact of their deaths make them "equal" in your sight and, do you believe, in the sight of God?

Yes.

The fact is thomas, that in death all are truly equal

In death, the pope is the same as a woman-priest
In death, an anti-abortionist bishop is the same as an abortion doctor
In death, a bishop is the same as a child molester
--- although death is not required for that to be the case
In death, a nazi is the same as a jew

In death, there are no lies, no greed, no lust, no hidden agendas
In death, there is simply death, the great unifier.

God created death to be the great equalizer.

In death, col55, there is heaven OR hell.

You do not find anything about Hell in Biblical record. The problem is, these Bishops have succeeded pointing the people's minds to the upcoming eternal hell that is about to come after death, when in reality they make others' lives a hell now and here, while all are too scared and too submissive to stand up, get those men to court on charges for mind-controlling the masses; and live a new life without pretensions for the megalomaniac, one day at at time... The real hell has been invented by the hierarchy to mass-control the subservient "believers" who end up becoming too influenced, as in emotionally lobotomized, to raise any relevant ethical and moral questions. And, that state of constant contrition (plainly called, "fear") is then marketed as "our Faith". What are we, Catholics? A bunch of lobotomized chickens?

Chingada,

You find nothing about hell in your Bible? I don't know what Bible that might be. In the Bible I've used, I find a lot:

(Mat 5:22) But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

(Mat 5:29) If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

(Mat 5:30) And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Mat 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

(Mat 10:28) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Mat 18:9) And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

(Mat 23:15) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

(Mat 23:33) You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

(Mar 9:43) And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

(Mar 9:45) And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

(Mar 9:47) And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

(Luk 12:5) But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!

(Jam 3:6) And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell.

(2Pe 2:4) For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;

(Mat 18:8) And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

(Mat 25:41) Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

(Jud 1:7) just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
Rev 20:15 and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

Hurt youself -- but only deep enough

"And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." (Matthew 18:9).

Wouldn't you be long without both eyes, if you would have followed that admonition? Who shall throw the first stone for being without sin? Okay... let us say you do. Then let us assume that you have no eyes by now...

The inspiration goes on...

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." (Mark 9:13).

Alright, by this point you are without two eyes and your hands are gone, because you were not able to vouch for having never sinned.

The act goes on...

"And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell" (Mark 9:45).

By that point, you are not only dead, but you don't have eyes, because you threw them away before you died, you don't have hands, because you cut them off before you died, and then you entered Heaven hopping on one foot, because you cut one foot off. In that moment you will receive a perfected clone copy of your former body, which should be your only hope for replacing the organs that you threw away in your guilt-loaded faith-based self-mutilation.

And do you really think God will give you a perfect clone copy of our self at that point? I doubt it. God would possibly kick you out of Heaven, for not having taken care of his creation, because your main obligation all along was protecting life, keeping yourself whole. God would possibly be annoyed that you were driven to insanity through some writings selected by the weird old men in the Vatican, who had long lost their originality through thousands of years of hiring as editors the worst samples of misogynists, neurotics, homophobes and pedophiles living in voluntary solitary confinement among men only, in a sect of divine aberration and hateful megalomaniacs who get the seizures if anyone whispers the word "Sex" into their ears.

http://amravin-meditations.blogspot.com/

"SantaChingada" - if you please? Everybody has the right to a full name, even an Avatar with some brains. ;-)

The excerpts you quoted are no evidence of anything concise, except the creativity of some church fathers who kept editing the Bible saga for as long as they had time, parchment and ink on their side. The Bible as we read it today was not thrown down from heaven with the ISBN of "God" printed on it...

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE COMMANDMENTS?

Here is another example on how the Bible has been manipulated by the Curia to its ultimate alienation from the original script: I respectfully ask you to compare the Ten Commandments. Do you remember what was the original commandment number two? It says more or less the following:

"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves … lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: (Deuteronomy 4:15-18)

And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them…. (Deuteronomy 4: 19)"

Well, here is what the Catholic Bible finally twisted from it:

"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain!"

Have you ever asked yourself, why would the Church Fathers change such an important commandment from "do not worship images" into "don't swear"?

One reason why the Catholics changed the second commandment, was because idolatry was used as a tool to convert the masses of pagans into the imperial religion. The Catholics have never worried at all for what God said or commanded. They only worried for what means would be there for the curia to gain profit. The generation of saints and urban myths that led to canonizations only served the purposes of mass-control through the manipulation of ignorance and superstition. Only by removing the real commandments, the Curiae were able of utilizing the superstitious beliefs of those with no access to education and critical thinking; and thus the church gained more power. Peculiarly, at the present Large numbers of Catholic people are leaving the faith, after they understand all these contexts when they figure out that the Catholic professional priesthood has been all along as self-invented and suppressive as it is to believe that women have less authority to speak about God than men would have at any time of history. And it is because of the same idolatry introduced by the Makers of Catholicity, that today there are weird cults in the world, such as Mexico's "Santa Muerte," the adoration of a skeleton.

Another implication of the "Do not Swear" new commandment replacing the original Hebrew text is, that by adding into the picture such an authoritarian suppression of the people's discourse, the church secured the silence of any dissenters. It is easy to reduce the argument of any opponent by adjuring his/her opinion to some dogmatically based obligatory silence. "Do not swear" becomes thus easily a "do not say more against the church", or "stop ranting and raving against the errors of our hierarchy...!" This is how the hierarchy has succeeded manipulating the peoples' opinion. Any act of rebellion expressed in a verbal way can easily be redefined as "swearing", if it accounts for the innumerable evils being covered up by the hierarchy. Such coverups became quite visible during the recent church scandals involving Crimen Solititationis, the infamous letter that had been circulated by the Vatican to all the bishops of the world, demanding that they would not say a word against the violations committed against children by pedophile priests world wide. Instead of reporting the pedophiles to the state agencies for law enforcement, the Bishops worldwide became complicit of the Pope, who at the same time kept transferring the perpetrators from parish to parish, from country to country, eventually picking some of them up, for their total protection inside the Vatican, in blatant disrespect of the laws of the countries of the world. This is how the "changed commandment" comes to circumvent freedom of expression. "Do now swear" can too easily become an oath of silence to protect the Cosa Nostra.

http://amravin-meditations.blogspot.com/

Whenever I have a question about the bible, I go to the oldest version available. For the OT, that is the Torah, which as near as we can determine, has been fairly faithfully preserved. I dont use it often, but is is interesting as note to find out how much the catholic church has twisted scriptures.

I say catholic church, because as so many of the faithful orthodox have pointed out so many times, for several centuries, catholicism was the only church in town. Therefore, they have to bear the guilt for twisting and falsifing scriptures. Many of those falsifications, such as the trinity, are coming to light now that we have a highly educated scholars dedicated to the pursuit of the truth.

Interesting, that one bishop in England is now blaming biblical scholars and other educated for the leadership failures of the Magisterial Authorities. huh???

For the NT, I prefer the aramaic translations. The Catholic Church has twisted and perverted the NT in some very subtle ways. One was pointed out in another post where the church caused a translation to read homosexuals, while another scholar versed in aramaic renders the same passage child molesters. Hell of a big difference there.

Enough of a difference for me to consider the church position on homosexuality to be at best questionable, at worst, a DELIBERATE lie.

Fact is, we would all do well to check and verify and validate EVERYTHING the Magisterial Authorities pontificate. They have a long history of deception, lies, and sometimes criminal behavior. The recent political activity is another example of their shameful deceptions.

With such a "checkered" history, do we really want to place our salvation in their hands without verifying it? I dont.

I too found a lot of real inspiration by visiting with some of the Rabbis, in order to crawl out of the bowl of insanity that our delusive curia has fabricated for us even before we learned how to say "I want my mommy...!" And indeed, the difference between Catholic and Jewish education is, they teach their kids how to think for themselves, and we are taught how to follow blindly. The other difference is, the Jewish men are way more sexy than our holy eunuchs.

You wrote: " I am SantaChingada as a means to keep identities straight."

I realize that many of the writers here employ pen names (keyboard names?) because they work for the church and would suffer repercussions if their identities were revealed. I would not urge you to use your own name because I don't know the circumstances of your life and what such transparency might cost you. But I do know that using my own name gives me an exhilerating sense of freedom. These are my thoughts and this is my name. I have nothing to fear. It's a good place to be.

Good for you, Frannie. My comment was only related to the habit of shortening my avatar to "Chingada" instead of the full "SantaChingada". That's all.

Jesus spoke of Gehenna, the Jerusalem garbage dump. Jesus says "Don't treat yourself like garbage. You are worth so much more than that."

Now what on earth (or heaven) happened to that Catholic purgatory??

Purgatory is intermediate, on the path to heaven. The final destination is either heaven, or hell.

That thomas, was another lie the magisterial authorities gave us.

JPII has already admitted that there is no hell, never was.

You are wrong. JPII never "admitted" such a thing. Would you care to cite your specific reference for your misunderstanding?

JPII stated that the idea of hell being a physical place consisting of burning brimstone and run by Satan was not a likely reality. However, the idea of eternal damnation is still valid.

"A loving God would never condemn his children to eternal suffering."

Col55,
This quote is hardly proof of anything. Where does it come from? Can you give a link? A Google search of this sentence turns up only your post!

The Catechism teaches that a person can send himself to hell, by his final rejection of God - not that God "sends" anyone to hell, but rather God gives us freedom to choose Him, and life, or the choose death, and hell. Is that maybe what you are trying to affirm?

Catechism:

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”<1 Jn 3:14-15> Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

Thomas

Without the option of rejecting God and ending up in Hell, we don't really have free will. I would say that a loving God gives everyone another chance. It seems likely that purgatory provides the chrystal clear picture for what in this life might have been confusing and misleading, and therefore provides the one last chance to show some humility, ask forgiveness, and accept God's love for eternity.

That sounds very pretty, except it ignores one fact. Prior to Dante writing the "Divine Comedy", the church did not have hell or purgatory.

The concept of hell is a fabrication by the church to scare ignorant peasants out of revolting and into unquestioning obedience of the clergy. The church adopted the images of Hell out of Dantes works because his vivid descriptions of suffering scared the ignorant peasents into submission.

Even today, with all of the pre election rhetoric, it is the same thing. Clergy attempting to scare laity into blind unquestioning obedience. Problem is, when most of the laity is as educated or more educated than the clergy, it doesnt work.

Not so. I think the purpose of the idea of hell is to curtail our free will. And I agree with Col that a loving God doesn't turn His children into crispy critters. I read some where that although there are verses folk can point to as indicating a condition for which prayer for the dead make sense, the church didn't really promulgate the idea of purgatory with a list of the temporal punishment due to sin until shew started selling indulgences. My only worry is that there will be souls so convinced that they are unlovable that they will flee the loving embrace of God.

There's always reincarnation. Maybe we're given a choice. "Here's the deal, sayeth Jesus, "you can go to your understanding of hell, or I'll just hit your reset button and you can try again."

http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com

Well, y'all, I think we cannot conclusively say there is no hell, and Thomas has given us those quotes that use the word even though they don't go into detail. The reincarnation idea may make some sense, since it has been my observation that among people residing in the same place and time, some seem to be living in heaven and some in hell...

Thomas!
I claim no right or ablilty, to know or understand what God sees in any of us! I'm sure that I will be corrected if I'm wrong, but I am here to learn! It has been a personal observation of mine that, "If I'm gonna be dumb, I gotta be tough!"
Here's the shakey part! It's my belief, according to early teachings, that those who would profess to know the will of God are guilty of presumption, which is a sacrilege, which is punishable by condemnation to everlasting hellfire. Kind of a risky attitude to assume, I'd say! So No! I cannot tell you that "they" are the same in the eyes of God!
I was taught, and I believe, that at the moment of "death" the soul leaves the body! I have seen the human fetus (spontaneous abortion, spent a lot of time on moblie intensive care units and in E.R.s) , I have seen mass murderers (Hitler for one) , I have seen people die (my red haired father at age four, most notably,) I have never been blessed to see a soul! Consequently I, like the rest of us, have no idea what the souls, of those I have seen die, looked like! I have no idea whether those souls were of the requisite condition, to be accepted by God! That province is neither mine, nor yours! That is God's to do! And God's to know!
So! My old friend, my answer on that issue is, that "In life no they are definitely not equal! In death? The possibility, through and by the grace of God, as objectionable as it may seem, they very well may be!
I would intersperse here another thought. Correct me if my procesing here is placing me in the occaision of heresy! The comandment, in it's entirety is, "Thou shalt not kill", Is it not? To a mind, exceeding slow, that says "Do not, by your own hand, separate any soul from any body!" My teachings would also tell it is said, somewhere, "What God hath joined together, let no MAN put asunder!" God obviously joined these souls to these bodies and when put "asunder the "body' dies and the soul, alive, separates to it's reward!
So! My old friend. Having seen dead "persons" of all shapes, sizes, ages, genders,nice and not so nice, I'd say yeah! They're all, pretty much a lead pipe cinch, equally dead! Considering that their souls are alive and
recieving their just rewards, bad or good, I'd say, Yeah! they're pretty much equal too!
I am of a fair certainty, and actually hopeful, that if I err, I will be taken to task!

God loves you Thomas! At times I question my sanity, But I do also!
Thank you for helping me figure this out! (To my satisfaction, at least)

James Edward
P.S. You read me precisely! They are all "equally" dead!

Hello James,

I'm glad you included this comment: "The comandment, in it's entirety is, "Thou shalt not kill", Is it not? To a mind, exceeding slow, that says "Do not, by your own hand, separate any soul from any body!"" - this is the crux of the matter, and NO, this is not the commandment in its entirety.

The commandment is better translated, "Do not murder the innocent" - not simply, "Do not kill." You can immediately see that God did not command His people to not "kill", because He did explicitly command them TO kill under certain circumstances.
1) some crimes/sins were to be paid for by capital punishment - the sinner/criminal was to be killed. Here are some examples:

Lev 20:8 Keep my statutes, and do them; I am the LORD who sanctify you.
Lev 20:9 For every one who curses his father or his mother shall be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his blood is upon him.
Lev 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
Lev 20:11 The man who lies with his father's wife has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
Lev 20:12 If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed incest, their blood is upon them.
Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
Lev 20:14 If a man takes a wife and her mother also, it is wickedness; they shall be burned with fire, both he and they, that there may be no wickedness among you.
Lev 20:15 If a man lies with a beast, he shall be put to death; and you shall kill the beast.
Lev 20:16 If a woman approaches any beast and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the beast; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

You get the idea. Killing was not forbidden. Rather, killing the innocent was forbidden.

This is the reason why abortion is always wrong, gravely wrong - abortion is killing of the innocent. Killing in war is not always wrong; capital punishment against one who has committed a capital offense against the common good is not always wrong.

Thomas