New Jesuit leader a progressive shaped by Asia
Print Friendly VersionBy JOHN L. ALLEN JR.
A Spanish-born academic who has spent most of his career in Asia, and who is seen as an advocate for the broadly progressive theological views associated with the Asian bishops, has been elected the new Superior General of the Jesuit order.
A native of Palencia, Spain, Fr. Adolfo Nicolás was elected this morning in Rome by 217 Jesuits taking part in the order’s 35th General Congregation. He succeeds Fr. Peter-Hans Kolvenbach as head of the 20,000-strong worldwide Jesuit order.
Though Nicolás, 71, was not among the most commonly mentioned candidates in the run-up to today’s vote, Jesuit sources said he represents a fairly bold choice – something of a blend between the mild personal manner and diplomatic skill of Kolvenbach, and the prophetic emphasis on justice, peace, and church reform associated with former General Fr. Pedro Arrupe.
Fr. Thomas Smolich, President of the Jesuit Conference in the United States and a member of the General Congregation that elected Nicolás, said the mood among the Jesuits was "joyous, exuberant, on cloud nine."
Smolich spoke by phone from Rome, saying that Nicolás was elected on the second ballot this morning.
"I believe we've chosen the man God had in mind," he said.
A former director of the East Asian Pastoral Institute in Manila and head of the Jesuit Conference of East Asia and Oceania, Nicolás is said to be particularly close to the church in Japan. In broad strokes, Jesuit observers say he represents the theological outlook associated with the Federation of Asian Bishops’ Conferences, with emphasis on inter-religious dialogue, advocacy for justice and peace, and “inculturation” of church teachings and practices.
In comments last year to a Jesuit publication in Australia, Nicolás laid out his vision of mission.
"Those who enter into the lives of the people, they begin to question their own positions very radically," Nicolás said. "Because they see genuine humanity in the simple people, and yet they see that this genuine humanity is finding a depth of simplicity, of honesty, of goodness that does not come from our sources."
That conversation must continue, Nicolás said, if the church is to learn from Asia and Asia is to learn from the church.
"That is a tremendous challenge, and I think it’s a challenge that we have to face. We don’t have a monopoly, and we have a lot to learn," he said.
Nicolás himself knows the alarms such views can sometimes set off in Rome. A Jesuit source in Rome said that several years ago, Nicolás was under consideration as Rector of the Gregorian University, but the Vatican expressed doubts about the appointment on the basis of concerns about the role he played as a theological advisor to the Japanese bishops during the 1998 Synod for Asia. During that session, prelates from across Asia, including a particularly strong push from Japan, argued for greater collegiality, or decentralization, in church authority.
The choice of Nicolás is especially significant, observers say, given that immediately prior to the election Pope Benedict XVI had addressed a letter to Kolvenbach, praising the Jesuits for their many apostolic works but also calling them to obedience on several contentious issues.
“It could prove extremely useful,” Benedict wrote, “that the General Congregation reaffirm, in the spirit of Saint Ignatius, its own total adhesion to Catholic doctrine, in particular on those neuralgic points which today are strongly attacked by secular culture, as for example the relationship between Christ and religions; some aspects of the theology of liberation; and various points of sexual morality, especially as regards the indissolubility of marriage and the pastoral care of homosexual persons.”
While Nicolás will certainly not lead the Jesuits in any direct challenge to those points, observers say, his election is nevertheless a choice for a "forward thinking" outlook, as well as for a sensibility to the realities of Catholicism outside the West.
Given Nicolás' background in inter-religious dialogue, both as a theologian and as a pastoral leader, Jesuit sources said the result could be read as a sort of response to the pope's letter -- giving the Vatican a dialogue partner who knows the issues posed by religious pluralism from the ground up.
Mercedarian Sr. Filo Hirota, who knows Nicolás well from his time in Japan, described him as "almost perfect."
"He is a very fine theologian, very human, with a wonderful sense of humor," Hirota said via telephone from her residence in Tokyo. She said that Nicolás played a key role in organizing a major gathering of the Japanese church in the 1980s that identified broad lines of future development, almost like a "mini-ecumenical council."
"He is a very balanced person," Hirota said. "He is prophetic in his vision, but he knows how to dialogue. He's very serene and very wise."
Smolich said that the blend of deep theological literacy and practical pastoral experience made Nicolás an attractive choice. For example, Smolich said, after Nicolás became provincial of the Jesuits in Japan, he moved to one of the poorest neighborhoods in Tokyo and got to know the social reality, a move that Smolich said "amazed and inspired people."
Hirota added one point certainly not on the new General's official biography: he does a winning impression, she said, of Charlie Chaplin.
The new Jesuit General speaks Spanish, Japanese, English, French and Italian.
The Jesuits this morning released the following biographical data about Nicolás:
• 29 April 1936: born in Palencia, Spagna
• 15 September 1953: Enters the novitiate at Aranjuez in the Province of Toletana (Spain).
• 1958-1960: License in Philosophy (Alcalá, Madrid)
• 1964-1968: Studies theology in Tokyo, Japan
• 17 March 1967: Priestly ordination in Tokyo, Giappone
• 1968-1971: Masters in Sacred Theology from the Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome
• 1971: Professor of Systematic Theology at Sophia University in Tokyo, Japan
• 1978-1984: Director of the East Asian Pastoral Institute in Manila (the Philippines)
• 1991-1993: Rector of the Scholasticate (Tokyo, Japan)
• 1993-1999: Provincial of the Province of Japan
• 2004-2007: Moderator of the Jesuit Conference of East Asia and Oceania.
Nicolás will lead the Jesuits in a Thanksgiving Mass tomorrow, followed by a reception at the Gregorian University. On Monday morning, he will take over leadership of the General Congregation as it begins charting a future course for the Jesuit order.
rdp Anna Danelson wrote, "if
rdp
Anna Danelson wrote, "if suddenly we hear talk of worshipping say, a quadinity,(made-up word) or perhaps a quininity,(another made up word) we would clearly be heading in the wrong direction." I say not so fast Anna, I would certainly like to study the meaning of quadinity, and quininity before I would know anything about what direction to think. I think that Father Nicholas sounds to be a very educated man and I would like to hear what is on the Asian mind even if it chalanges my mind.
So are you saying that we,
So are you saying that we, as Catholics, are free to add more persons to the Blessed Trinity? That would be creating a NEW religion. Only Christ's Life and HIS Passion, only HIS Sacrifice, has the power before God, THE BLESSED TRINITY, to forgive sins and lead us to Salvation.
May The Holy Spirit guide Father Nicolas in his new role.
P.S.,Just so you know, you may find you have a hard time "pondering" the meanings of the word quadinity and quininity since they are not in the Catholic dictionary and haven't been for some 2,ooo years.
Annie, I apologize on
Annie,
I apologize on rereading your post, I see that you did ask me a question and not tell me what I was saying. I am not certain why I made that error in my initial post, but I think the rest of my answer is what I would have wanted to communicate. Peace to you Annie!
rdp
Dear Annie, It is
Dear Annie,
It is problematic when when you tell me that I am saying that we are free to add more Persons to the Blessed Trinity. I don't understand how you could infer that from my post. More properly you might have asked if I believed that we could add Persons to the Blessed Trinity. What I was really implying with my first post is that the Asian mind might see theology in quit a different way than we do. In Mandarin, the way that they express verb tense is through adverbs because they do not have declinations of verbs into tenses. So indeed they may see complicated issues in a different light than the western mind.
I will give you a bit of an example as to what I was implying. If you and I were looking into a large room of people (interacting in some way- say a basketball game), through different windows on different sides of a room, we would certainly see what was happening a little differently. You might see a foul that I did not or I might see that someone stepped on a boundary line that you did not see. Therefore our human minds come away with a different view of truth. Since we both have imperfect human minds, neither of us is able to see all of truth (or THE TRUTH.) We only see what our minds allow us to see. Now some will say that since God told us The Truth we can at least see that. However with our finite minds we still can only see what we think or believe that God is telling us. So yes, the Asian view of the Trinity could be very different than ours in the west. That is why it is very important to try to understand more precisely the definitions of any new words that come up. Who is to say that words we have no understanding for are not truly inspired by our great God. They may be a portion of truth that is inspired by the Spirit that we in the west have not even had the chance to grasp at yet. For truth to us finite beings is a lot like sand we grasp at and most of it slips through our fingers. This is why it takes a long time for societies or academic thoughts to grow and develop. Even though we live in a great scientific information age, what we know is almost nothing when compared to the mind of the infinite. This is what makes us human beings very equal when we compare ourselves to the infinite mind of God. Peace and understanding, Anne.
rdp
I agree with you ,rdp, that
I agree with you ,rdp, that individual interpretation of the Truth can cause much confusion. That is why, for example, in your analogy of a basketball game, someone got wise and created the concept of a referee. That is not to say that referees cannot err in their judgement, but rather someone is put in place to make the final call to avoid chaos.
In regards to the Catholic Church, we believe in the Word Made Flesh as it has been revealed to us in the Trinitarian Relationship of Sacred Tradition ( oral as well as written), Sacred Scripture ( the Testimony as recorded in the New Testament by The Fathers of the Church) and Magisterial Teaching ( which includes God's chosen leader in this period of History, The Holy Pope Benedict XVI, INFALLIBLE REFEREE in matters of Church Dogma and aka, DEFENDER OF TRUTH).
P.S. I feel like I have become a dissenter to the dissenters on this Catholic site.
Dear Anne, I agree, Anne,
Dear Anne,
I agree, Anne, that in a basketball game that there is a a need for a judge or referee so that the game can continue without acrimony, but in life good, bright and spiritual women and men will always see things just a little differently. The argument of infallibility is very pale as even such great saints as Thomas Aquinas stated that he could never act against his own conscience. Infallible declarations by popes are extremely rare and if one studies Vatican I, it would seem to be very questionable that they exist at all. We are finite beings and we are all extremely equal when compared to the Infinite. The only true arbiter of all truth is our Infinite God.
Vatican II clearly pointed out the need for loyal dissent to questionable teachings. Most of us on this site were raised and educated throughout our lives in Roman Catholicism and some of us see the need to speak out in this time of episcopal crisis. My upbringing has taught me to attempt to use daily centering prayer. The result of this in the times of such crisis is to speak truth as it is found. To me this is what a soul truly seeking God would do.
Peace and understanding,
rdp
"Vatican II clearly pointed
"Vatican II clearly pointed out the need for loyal dissent to questionable teachings."
May I ask where?
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What I'm Pondering...
AnnieD, sometimes some of
AnnieD, sometimes some of the things you say engage my attention. I don’t fear, but I have a kind of apprehension that sometimes you sound closed off to any further future revelation of God to you.
You wrote:
“So are you saying that we, as Catholics, are free to add more persons to the Blessed Trinity? That would be creating a NEW religion. Only Christ's Life and HIS Passion, only HIS Sacrifice, has the power before God, THE BLESSED TRINITY, to forgive sins and lead us to Salvation.
P.S.,Just so you know, you may find you have a hard time "pondering" the meanings of the word quadinity and quininity since they are not in the Catholic dictionary and haven't been for some 2,ooo years.”
It’s as if God frozen as He was to you 2000 years ago and what ever we knew about God at that time is stuck in your mind as the only possible understanding of an infinite ever expanding, ever evolving Supreme Being.
Why can’t GOD be anything MORE than what we conceive of God as now? I mean it would seem obvious to me that God is much much more than we could possibly conceive of Him as being from our lowly earthly perspective. I realize that you would only accept such expansion on the understanding of God as the Church would put forth in it’s dogma. Doctrine magisterial and divinely inspired context as interpreted by the same said Roman Catholic Church.
Surely you must understanding that the Roman Catholic Church is constantly "pondering" the meanings” of many ideas and concepts presented to them continuously. What if the Roman Catholic Church were "pondering the meaning” of the following as a possible revelatory expansion on our current understanding of God in all His aspects including but not limited to “THE BLESSED TRINITY.”
"It would also be consistent to refer to the liaison of all spiritual ministry as the spirit of God, for such a liaison is truly the union of the spirits of God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, and God the Sevenfold--even the spirit of God the Supreme.
The Seven Master Spirits of Paradise are the primary personalities of the Infinite Spirit. In this sevenfold creative act of self-duplication the Infinite Spirit exhausted the associative possibilities mathematically inherent in the factual existence of the three persons of Deity. Had it been possible to produce a larger number of Master Spirits, they would have been created, but there are just seven associative possibilities, and only seven, inherent in three Deities. And this explains why the universe is operated in seven grand divisions, and why the number seven is basically fundamental in its organization and administration.
The Conjoint Creator, the Infinite Spirit, is necessary to the completion of the triune personalization of undivided Deity. This threefold Deity personalization is inherently sevenfold in possibility of individual and associative expression; hence the subsequent plan to create universes inhabited by intelligent and potentially spiritual beings, duly expressive of the Father, Son, and Spirit, made the personalization of the Seven Master Spirits inescapable. We have come to speak of the threefold personalization of Deity as the absolute inevitability, while we have come to look upon the appearance of the Seven Master Spirits as the subabsolute inevitability.
While the Seven Master Spirits are hardly expressive of threefold Deity, they are the eternal portrayal of sevenfold Deity, the active and associative functions of the three ever-existent persons of Deity. By and in and through these Seven Spirits, the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, or the Infinite Spirit, or any dual association, is able to function as such. When the Father, the Son, and the Spirit act together, they can and do function through Master Spirit Number Seven, but not as the Trinity. The Master Spirits singly and collectively represent any and all possible Deity functions, single and several, but not collective, not the Trinity. Master Spirit Number Seven is personally nonfunctional with regard to the Paradise Trinity, and that is just why he can function personally for the Supreme Being.
But when the Seven Master Spirits vacate their individual seats of personal power and superuniverse authority and assemble about the Conjoint Actor in the triune presence of Paradise Deity, then and there are they collectively representative of the functional power, wisdom, and authority of undivided Deity--the Trinity--to and in the evolving universes. Such a Paradise union of the primal sevenfold expression of Deity does actually embrace, literally encompass, all of every attribute and attitude of the three eternal Deities in Supremacy and in Ultimacy. To all practical intents and purposes the Seven Master Spirits do, then and there, encompass the functional domain of the Supreme-Ultimate to and in the master universe.
No one of the Seven Spirits is organically representative of the Paradise Trinity, but when they unite as sevenfold Deity, this union in a deity sense--not in a personal sense--equivalates to a functional level associable with Trinity functions. In this sense the "Sevenfold Spirit" is functionally associable with the Paradise Trinity. It is also in this sense that Master Spirit Number Seven sometimes speaks in confirmation of Trinity attitudes or, rather, acts as spokesman for the attitude of the Sevenfold-Spirit-union regarding the attitude of the Threefold-Deity-union, the attitude of the Paradise Trinity."
So while the Blessed Trinity is enough of an explanation of God for us to grasp today. Don’t think that at some future time as the Church deems necessary (maybe a hundred or two-hundred years from now) that we won’t receive some more profound understanding of the God we grasp today with 2000 year old concepts.
I mean look at Bernadette of Lourdes, Annie. At the time she revealed the “I am the Immaculate Conception” concept. It was considered by many as blasphemy. But eventually after much deliberation and contemplation was accepted by the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
So I do expect future revelations of God to people chosen by God and eventually accepted and incorporated by the Roman Catholic Church and passed on to us. Don’t you expect that Annie?
Besides all that, The living God is within you Annie, and is Personally revealed to you within your heart.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
"I mean look at Bernadette
"I mean look at Bernadette of Lourdes, Annie. At the time she revealed the “I am the Immaculate Conception” concept. It was considered by many as blasphemy."
You might want to try history instead of dubious channeled books, joer. The Immaculate Conception was debated for some eight hundred years before it was declared a dogma of the Catholic faith, four years before the apparitions at Lourdes. It had recognition as a doctrine four four hundred years before it was elevated to dogma.
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What I'm Listening To...
really the history of that book is creepy, I wonder what Fr Armoth would think of it...
I might be the only other
I might be the only other person on this board who knows who Fr. Armoth is, and I think we both know what Fr. Armoth would think about this particular channeled book. He'd turn on the Holy Water sprinklers, while burning it.
On the otherhand HT, I've read some other channeled material and one of those books was the Book of Revelations. That's kind of creepy too.
I actually wouldn't assume
I actually wouldn't assume that, because the errors in the book (from theology, to history, to science) are so glaring that it would reflect very poorly on the father of lies if this were actually channeled and not a fake.
As to Revelations, I seem to remember that John was aware of what he wrote, (unlike most channeling claims), as well as the fact that he didn't try to explain away the hard sayings of Jesus. I am the last person to discount the spiritual, but the first to quote John (who was the first to advise): test all spirits.
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What I'm Pondering...
btw, I can't seem to find your blog
You might be right HT,
You might be right HT, maybe Fr. Armoth wouldn't turn on the sprinklers. I can't remember, did John dream Revelations and then write down his dreams, or did he just write it?
Most channelers are in a state of disassociation in which they may or may not be aware of what they say or write. My personal opinion is the more you are out it, the more likely you haven't found the good guys. Free will and all that.
Blog is http://colkoch.blogtoolkit.com
I had to look this up (Rev
I had to look this up (Rev 1:1-11) "I [John] was in the spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet saying, "What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven churches, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
(Sorry, my Douay-Rhiems was closest ;-) )
It would seem that he had a vision and then wrote down everything that he saw.
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What I'm Pondering...
Thanks HT. I wish John
Thanks HT. I wish John would have turned around to see what was behind him.:)
We are all immaculately
We are all immaculately conceived. Does God start everyone out with a handicap.The handicaps we have, we develop with the help of our parents,our teachers and our church. The whole story of the apple,the snake and the banishment are myth and on that myth we built a doctrine. The holiness,steadfastness and purity of heart that Mary had is set out for us that we may immitate. I certainly would not try to posit that I am equal to Mary [in any way]but I did not start out with a handicap
Hi sevenup, Unfortunately,
Hi sevenup,
Unfortunately, we are not immaculately conceived like Mary was. The world would not be the same place if you were right. I wish you were right, but it is the main reason that Jesus died for us on the cross, for our salvation. I am sure HT can explain why, through the sin of Adam, who represents all of man, why Jesus, who represents the New Adam had to die for us.
There is a good explanation for this in a book I often have to look back at and refer to often and it is entitled "Theology for Beginners" by F.J. Sheed. It's a great little book to help guide us through this and many other concepts.
God Bless you.
Well let's see. If we can
Well let's see. If we can discount the first three chapters of Genesis as a mere myth that we shouldn't build doctrine on, then really that throws into question the entire book. After all, how much more did the writer editorialize? So that's done with, but what of these other four books, all dating back to quite possibly the same author? If we're throwing one out, why not the rest. Hmm, now the rest of it doesn't make much sense, why not scrap the whole thing?
Gone Tommorrow
sevenup, so are you like,
sevenup, so are you like, metaphorically speaking, blogging us from Heaven?
Joer, is that the seven
Joer, is that the seven masters of paradise as in the Urantia Book? Would you be refering to a trinity of trinities or a decadinity? With all due respect, Joer, The Blessed Trinity is the fundamental belief of the Catholic Church. The Father, The Son, (the Word made Flesh) and The Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth). God who is Perfect Love, Perfect Truth.
Regarding Mary's Immaculate Conception as stated in the Creed-
I(We) believe ...and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, who was born of The Virgin Mary...
From The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia- "The term Immaculate Conception does not mean the active or generative conception by Her parents..."Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin with sanctifying grace."
From the Catechism of The Catholic Church, 491
The dogma proclaimed in Christian Tradition and defined in 1854, that from the first moment of Her Conception, Mary,-by the singular grace of God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ-was preserved immune from original sin.
The Angel Gabriel's Greeting to Mary, " Hail Mary, full of Grace..."
God created a Mother, Conceived in Sanctifying Grace,to be the Mother of His only Son, Jesus Christ. Mary, who is the Mother of God, and God with Whom all things are possible because of His Love.
AND, What Here Today said.
AnneD, you are right about
AnneD, you are right about Mary. God chose her for His Mother from the beginning of time and he lavished her with the gift of Divine Grace when she was conceived in her mother. Jesus, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, was the only son who could have chosen his own mother, and what loving son does not want to give her mother great gifts?
As for the discussion about God and His infinite wisdom, we are in comparison to Him very low creatures and no one has ever seen Him. His love for us is true humility, and He is Love for stooping to our level, coming down from Heaven to save us, hearing our prayers, dying for us to redeem us, to bring us to Him and His everlasting love.
AnnieD, I’m not attacking
AnnieD, I’m not attacking the validly of The Immaculate Conception.
You wrote:
From The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia- "The term Conception does not mean the active or generative conception by Her parents..."Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin with sanctifying grace." Hail Mary, Full of Grace...Why would God not create a Mother born of Sanctifying Grace for His only Son? Mary who is the Mother of God, and God, with Whom nothing is impossible because of His Love.
The only thing that I’m saying is that the Catholic Church is constantly reviewing reported revelations, appearances, purported miracles and other phenomenon that are purported to be God related. So if you want to disagree with me disagree with that. Because that’s my point and I’m sticking to it.
I have to thank Here Today for supporting that point with his wonderful post showing that the Catholic Church does extensive and exhaustive reviews of theological concepts and other God related phenomenon before it incorporates it into it’s approved theological material. You don’t have to trust me, trust here today. He’s saying it was around 800 years before the approved and moved the Immaculate Conception Concept into Dogma. That’s my point Annie. While we live and breath this very moment the Catholic Church that we both Love an adore is considering new concepts and ideas and reported phenomenon to determine weather they should be recognized or not.
There are those who have seen miracles that never will be reviewed or approved by the church and I’m sure they won’t mind a bit. Their approval came from a higher authority, the one that granted their miracle. They don’t need or seek the Churches recognition for their gift from God. And when the church approves some of those the things that they are reviewing now for authentication of Divine intervention 800 years from now, those that recognize today will be vindicated for their beliefs today of what the church will recognize 800 years from today. BUT believe me Annie they don’t need to wait 800 years for the church’s recognition. They know it already. That’s all they need.
And if Chris (Here Today) doesn’t think Bernadette suffered persecution and hardships for reporting that the Virgin Mary said She was the Immaculate Conception, that’s his problem not mine. He can believe what ever he wants. But I pray for and thank Bernadette for her courage and bravery for standing up to the ridicule and persecution she suffered for telling the truth of her experience. I cry when I think of her suffering for her faithfulness to God and the Mother of God.
May the peace of God be with you and all at this site. :-)
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
Bernadette Soubirous saw a
Bernadette Soubirous saw a beautiful lady who did not reveal her name. After several apparitions the lady said that she was the Immaculate Conception. (note that the teaching on the Immaculate Conception had been declared dogma 4 years earlier, roma locuta, causa finita est, no?). She was indeed persecuted, because how dare this peasant girl claim to be seeing Mary? (Ironically since she didn't even know her catechism, she was unaware that the Lady had claimed to be Mary.)
Your timing is off joer. While the apparition has been taken as a sign that the dogma is correct, it followed the definition, it did not cause it.
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What I'm Pondering...
Here Today wrote: "She was
Here Today wrote:
"She was indeed persecuted, because how dare this peasant girl claim to be seeing Mary? (Ironically since she didn't even know her catechism, she was unaware that the Lady had claimed to be Mary.)Your timing is off joer. "
When is the timing right for persecution Here Today? And when is not knowing your catechism a justification for persecution? How is one's empathy for Bernadette measured Here Today? By their knowledge about her or their Love for her?
Peace be with you my friend. May God's blessings guide us all to "living" the everlasting truth. Our God is a God of Love and would not condone persecution for any reason. And the persecuted he would embrace in His Loving arms. Does it say that in the Magisterium Here Today or is it written in our hearts by the hand of God?
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
When you recount historical
When you recount historical events and construct a 'post hoc' argument (fallacious though that may be), you need to make sure that you have your events in order. Your initial argument was that 1)Bernadette announced that Mary called herself the Immaculate Conception, 2)The idea of the Immaculate Conception was blasphemous, (SC) Bernadette was persecuted for the Immaculate Conception, 3) and that the Church's eventual acceptance as doctrine and definition as dogma came after years of deliberation predicated by the apparition.* C) Therefore, the Church changes doctrine based on private revelation.
Your first premise was mistaken, other assumed that the lady was Mary, but not Bernadette, who revealed that the lady called herself "the Immaculate Conception". Considering that the IC was defined as dogma four (4) years before the apparitions, the concept of the IC was not considered blasphemous. (although the idea of Mary appearing in a garbage dump to a poor, uneducated girl was, hence her persecution). Your chronology is off as to when the Church first started studying the idea of the immaculate conception by several hundred years, and on the acceptance of the dogma by at least four years.
You attempt to use an inaccurate case to break down a general principle to uphold inserting your own source (a questionable matter of private "revelation" that we discussed some time ago). As I have no wish to debate this source again here, I deconstructed your argument to show that you have not, in fact, addressed the general principle that excludes adding persons to the Trinity (which is where this all started).
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What I'm Pondering...
* (joer, 1/25/2008) I mean look at Bernadette of Lourdes, Annie. At the time she revealed the “I am the Immaculate Conception” concept. It was considered by many as blasphemy. But eventually after much deliberation and contemplation was accepted by the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Congratulations to Fr.
Congratulations to Fr. Nicolas. I pray God grants him the grace and the strength to be a worthy successor to the OBEDIENT and ORTHODOX founder of the august order. But one can't help but wonder:
"don't have a monopoly" - what is the Eucharist according to this philosophy?
inculturation, learn from Asia - does he think that Christ said "I and the Asians are with you to the end of the age"?
Several other comments are almost as disconcerting.
One brick at a time, indeed.
One brick at a time, is
One brick at a time, is meant to refer to the metaphorical BUILDING of the church, GOD'S building (1 Cor 3:9). Of which Christ is, of course, the cornerstone. In the hope that Fr. Nicolas will contribute to this building, by his work, and by his person, I am encouraged and gladdened by this news.
For those who may wonder: To which distant place the Love of God does not extend; or, who among His creation has He forsaken? Or still, which mind is too removed for Him to enter? I might recommend: A mirror.
One of the catholic church's
One of the catholic church's most prized assets is its understanding of inculturation, which the Jesuit order is very skilled at. In other words, when we do it well, we do it better. I'd be careful about throwing out the baby with the bath water, if that's what you're doing. Normative thinking ala vatican-style is fine for what it is, but it is not the whole ball game. If, in fact, the pope and the curia do not see a role for talking to their own people out "in the field", I'd be embarrassed for them, as sometimes in fact I am. However, given that the pope has already approved this leadership of a religious order (that you aren't a member of?), perhaps you should consider that he already approved the laying of the brick that other catholics on here are celebrating.
This is a part of it, yes.
This is a part of it, yes. But, a fair examination of history will show that when missionaries came to an area, whether they were in Asia or Africa or the Americas, they latinized the culture -- there always was some extent of "Vatican normative" standardization, associated with the Mass, primarily, that was introduced to the culture.
So we decide in 1960's that we can do whatever we like to the Mass (completely unprecedented in history -- all changes prior had been evolutionary, subtle changes, as John Henry Cardinal Newman pointed out over a hundred years ago) and that we don't need to be as active in the missions. Combining this extreme attitude of laissez-faire with the high degree of cultural adaptation which the Jesuits were known for has in many cases been problematic.
One need look no further than our own Jesuit universities -- are they Christian places, or are they indistinguishable from the worst of the lefty-trendy-secular public universities from a CULTURAL point of view? If St. Ignatius were on Earth to see it, what would we hear him say?
I'll say it again, and I'll say it every day -- Congrats to Fr. Nicolas, and may God grant him the strength to be a worthy successor to the obedient and orthodox St. Ignatius.
Well, I think it was not so
Well, I think it was not so much "we" that changed the Mass, but the actions of the magisterium in V2 (completely unprecedented?--don't think the early church prayed the mass in latin? so that would seem like a likely precedent in some reverse gear?). There was not a V2 decision to be less active in the missions that I know of, although there is an increasing shortage of missionaries...but you can clarify if V2 called for that lesser activity; I confess with great horror and shame that I'm not too sure of that. The changes of V2 were anything but laissez-faire, depending on your meaning--it was a very active time of much work and renewed involvement in the Church. If someone's failure somewhere was off or offensive, that does happen in times of great change, and is surely something that can be forgiven. Since I go back a long way, I can even remember failure in liturgy in the old days...
As to Jesuit universities, it's hard to know how to answer such a sweeping statement. Are you a product of such, and perhaps a righty-trendy-fundy student feeling out-of-sync with one, or are you just kinda catching wind of people's attitudes about Jesuits from surfing around? Not clear to me what you mean by CULTURAL, so would have to be a bit more specific there also.
As to St. Ignatius, I think he'd be immensely proud of his 'troops', so to speak.
Our New General: Adolfo
Our New General: Adolfo Nicolas, S.J.
See link below to Philippine Jesuit Provincial Fr. Daniel Patrick Huang, S.J.'s very personal and edifying portrait of Fr. General Adolfo Nicolas, written the day after his election. Fr. Nico, as he is affectionately called, has been based at the Jesuit university Ateneo de Manila in the Philippines since 2004, as President of the Jesuit Conference on East Asia and Oceania (JCEAO) and Chair of the East Asian Pastoral Institute (EAPI) of which he was Director in 1978-84:
Thank you for sharing this
Thank you for sharing this tribute to the Jesuits' new leader, Benjamin. What a wonderful tribute to a life lived in service. And what a great choice to celebrate!
One brick at a time. Amen.
One brick at a time.
Amen.
Perhaps! Perhaps! Perhaps
Perhaps! Perhaps! Perhaps now the whole church could now realise that half the population of the world lives in Asia. The church has too long been western European [where only 10% of the world population live ] The theology of Rome and St Thomas Aquinas does not ring true in Asia except where the church has been Europeanised. The church was not meant only for westerners, much less Europeans, much less latins, much less Romans
Wow! What a joy!
Wow! What a joy! Congratulations to all the Jesuits and to the Church as a whole. I am quite relieved, especially after reading Pope Benedict's letter to the Jesuits. Jose V Arruda
Fusco "Earlier, Benedict had
Fusco
"Earlier, Benedict had approved a list of candidates that included Nicolás."
I really wonder whether this is a fact, and where that fact was made public.
John Allen reported this
John Allen reported this Jan. 25:
Speaking informally to reporters, Jesuit spokesperson Fr. Jose de Vera clarified a couple of points about the election process. Formally speaking, he said, Pope Benedict XVI did not “approve” the election, but was merely informed of it before it was made public. In this case, de Vera said, a telephone had been installed in the meeting room so that someone could call the pope, and the delegates remained in the room until this had been done. (De Vera said he wasn’t sure who made the call, or whether this person spoke directly to the pope or perhaps to his secretary.)
Contrary to an earlier report in NCR, de Vera also said that no list of candidates was submitted to Benedict XVI prior to the election of the new Father General. On the other hand, since the custom is for the general to be elected from among the delegates to the General Congregation, theoretically the Vatican could have expressed reservations about a particular candidate well in advance.
In any event, de Vera said, to the best of his knowledge neither the pope nor any Vatican official expressed any ambivalence about Nicolás.
Dennis Coday, NCR cafe management
I can't imagine why you
I can't imagine why you think that the Jesuit list of possible leaders should be public information. Are you a Jesuit?
I think inter-religious
I think inter-religious dialogue can be a good thing as long as it is respectful of the Word revealed to us in the Trinitarian relation of Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and Magisterial Teaching. In other words, if suddenly we hear talk of worshipping say, a quadinity,(made-up word) or perhaps a quininity,(another made up word) we would clearly be heading in the wrong direction. P.S. On a much lighter note, I was looking at the stories on the Comcast home page today- Aren't you glad that God decided to do away with the giant rodents? I had a problem with some mice a few years ago and, well, you get the visual.
God Bless our Pope, the Holy Benedict XVI, DEFENDER OF TRUTH!
Embracing Truth Jesus had an
Embracing Truth
Jesus had an unerring ability for the recognition of truth, and truth he never hesitated to embrace, no matter from what source it appeared to emanate.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
Serious question. The church
Serious question. The church teaches that there are three persons in the trinity but where did or does the church teach that there are only three persons in the Godhead? What if the trinity doctrine is a patching together of things we know about God from Scripture and the logic that we try to apply to what we do not know? In other words: Are we in over our heads? can God say "If I explained it to you I'd have to kill you"
Seven-up The idea of seven
Seven-up The idea of seven spirits comes from the possible association of the three persons of the trinity. Mathematically there are seven possibilities. Some call it the heavenly number. With three persons of the trinity these are the seven possible Trinity associations of the three distinct personalities:
God The Father.
God The Son.
God The Holy Spirit.
God The Father and the Son.
God The Father and the Spirit.
God The Son and the Spirit.
God The Father, Son, and Spirit.
Now AnnieD says:
With all due respect, Joer, The Blessed Trinity is the fundamental belief of the Catholic Church. The Father, The Son, (the Word made Flesh) and The Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth). God who is Perfect Love, Perfect Truth.
She and Here Today and other Trads, often refer to these sources “In regards to the Catholic Church, we believe in the Word Made Flesh as it has been revealed to us in the Trinitarian Relationship of Sacred Tradition ( oral as well as written), Sacred Scripture ( the Testimony as recorded in the New Testament by The Fathers of the Church) and Magisterial Teaching ( which includes God's chosen leader in this period of History, The Holy Pope Benedict XVI, INFALLIBLE REFEREE in matters of Church Dogma and aka, DEFENDER OF TRUTH).”
When they present these sources as if they are infallible sources they seldom produce the actual text from the sources BUT present their words and claim these sources back them up.
I would really like to see the words as presented in the sources themselves. Perhaps there are other words in these sources the present things that are not commonly talked about.
I mean I believe in the Father Son and Holy Spirit three persons in One God. And I’m not claiming anything I’m saying is doctrine of any church. I’m talking about ideas. And I’m speculating that The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that has had Great thinkers and teachers contemplating the mysteries of God for thousands of years, has a lot more to say about the Holy Trinity then my friends Here Today and Annie Dannielson have to say to us here. Like “the fundamental belief of the Catholic Church. The Father, The Son, (the Word made Flesh) and The Holy Spirit”. I’m not looking for a fundamental Catechism lesson. I’ve had years of those.
I haven’t seen anyone here who doesn’t know the fundamental beliefs of Catholicism. Chris and Annie I don’t’ mind studying and talking about ideas from sources you choose. Just let me pick out the ideas of those sources That I would like to talk about. Then we don’t have to argue about sources. Lets talk about ideas. Give me some official Catholic sources that discuss the Trinity Concept and meanings in detail including the historical development of the Trinity concepts within the Catholic Church and let me research and then I’ll present my choice of ideas with the documented source that you have already approved. Then lets talk. For the rest of the people here who enjoy discussing ideas without being particularly divisive about the sources I’ll continue with our normal conversations.
I don’t need a particular source to see the Truth, I can see it all around me. Not that every source contains truth, but many do.
God bless and guide us All. :-)
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
Joer, with all due respect,
Joer, with all due respect, you are envisioning the Trinity incorrectly. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So envision the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit comes from this powerful Union. So you have the Father, the Word made Flesh, and The Spirit of Truth and Love.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church- " In adoring the Holy Trinity, life-giving, consubstantial, and indivisible, the Church's Faith also professes the distinction of persons...We do not Confess three gods but one God in three Persons, the Consubstantial Trinity.
We(I) Believe in God, the Father Almighty...
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, Begotten not made, One in Being With the Father, through Him all things were made.
And in the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, Together With the Father and the Son is Worshipped and Glorified.
If envisioning the Trinity Mathematically, your formula does not work because the Trinity, although it contains three separate persons, is One God. It can not be divided. Wherever the Father is, there is the Son and the Holy Spirit. Your Mathematical equation ends up with too many "separate" parts. Envision two equal intersecting circles with the area of intersection being The Holy Spirit. This would be consistent from a mathematical viewpoint. Math is not my forte, ( Trust me, I could never get past the whole a negative times a negative equals a positive thing) but even I recognize that this symbol works. If you are a Scientist, envision a single cell that begets another identical cell, and then comes together as one.
While watching a presentation of the Holy Rosary on EWTN one day, I believe that Mary gave us a sign. ( or perhaps it was the Angel of The Lord, Saint Gabriel the Archangel, Patron Saint of Communications ) It was a Beautiful Presentation of the Rosary in a Cathedral, led by five young children who looked to be in eight grade. For a brief moment, the camera panned to the Blessed Sacrament on the Altar. On the Blessed Sacrament, there appeared two equal circles of light whose centers exactly touched.
I thought this strange, and could not get this image out of my mind so I did some research on this symbol. From the Sacred Geometry Home Page by Bruce Rowles, " this symbolic intersection represents the commonground, shared vision or mutual understanding between equal individuals. The Ratio of the axes of the form is the square root of 3, which alludes to the deepest nature of the Truine, which can not be expressed by Rational Language alone. The ratio, 265:153, is an approximation to the square root of 3. The number 153, is the number of fish Jesus caused to be caught in a miraculous catch of fish, ( John 21:1-14 ). This was now the third time that Jesus was revealed to His disciples after the Resurrection.
The figure formed by the two linking circles is called the Vesica Piscis. It translates from Latin literally as "fishbladder". This Mendorla is often seen in Christian architecture and art: as a frame for Jesus and the Saints or as a passage between Heaven and Earth through which Jesus ascends.
Viewed vertically, the Mandola forms the shape of a fish. The word "fish",translates into Greek as "ichthys", which is an acronym for Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior. Early Christians used this sign to identify themselves to one another and avoid persecution.
References to the Trinity in the New Testament are numerous, if you look closely for them. We have already discussed the fact that Jesus refers to His father 45 times at the Last Supper in the Gospel of John. ( Chapters 13-17 )
John, Chapter 21, ends with another confirmation of both the Trinity and Peter as first Pope. When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, ' Simon Peter, Son of John, do you Love me more than these?' He said to Him,' Yes Lord, you know that I Love You.' He said to him, ' FEED my LAMBS.' ( The Father ) He then said to him a second time, ' Son of John, do you Love Me?' He said to him, ' Yes Lord, You know that I Love you.' He said to him,' TEND my Sheep'.
( The Son ) He said to him the third time, ' Simon, son of John, do you Love Me?' Peter was distressed that He had said to him a third time, do you Love Me. And he said to him, ' Lord, you know everything. You know that I love You.' Jesus said to Him, ' FEED my Sheep.' ( The Spirit )
Jesus had to ask three times just as Peter had denied him three times as there exists three separate persons in ONE God.
At the end of the Day, it is still a Great Mystery. Peace.
Thank You Annie! What a
Thank You Annie! What a beautiful heartfelt response. I got a sense that that was a very personal and faithful spiritual response Annie. Thank You.
May God always be with you and in your heart. God Bless You AnnieD :-)
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
Pot...Kettle... (As annie
Pot...Kettle... (As annie pointed out you fail to name your most common source, including the one for this 'septinity')
I'm not a Trad (would make my life easier if I was... FSSP or St John Cantius in Chicago), just a Catholic who doesn't rely on spurious channeled gospels.
My sources were a commonly repeated phrase throughout the Old Testament, and into the New (Hear, O Israel...), the Gospel of Matthew (chapter 28, the Great Commision), and the CCC (#65) quoting St John of the Cross.
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What I'm Pondering...
(If we're going off topic on others sources can you explain the colors of Adam& Eve's children (Red, Blue, Yellow, Green, Orange, Indigo, and Violet)?
HT wrote: "My sources were a
HT wrote:
"My sources were a commonly repeated phrase throughout the Old Testament, and into the New (Hear, O Israel...), the Gospel of Matthew (chapter 28, the Great Commision), and the CCC (#65) quoting St John of the Cross."
Got any links?
These are sources for the church's historical development and discussions for the establishment of the Trinity concepts and ideas? Those are the sources I asked for. What you give here doesn't seem very comphrehensive. It looks a little lean.
Thanks in advance. God's Peace be with you. :-)
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
The sources I gave (linky)
The sources I gave (linky) are enough to construct the argument that 1) there is one God, 2) that there are three persons in one God, and 3) that nothing further can be added by Revelation after the Apostles. The burden of proof would be on those who wish to discount St John of the Cross: "In giving us his Son, His only Word (for He possesses no other), He spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and He has no more to say." Seeing as the Church has accepted this at a matter of doctrine.
I have always been open with my sources, and since all three of mine are easily obtainable and recognizable I would ask for the same courtesy. It is rather obnoxious of you, who quote entire posts from an unnamed source (without any attribution), to insist on links to the Bible and Catechism. If you do not own either of these books they are available online, all it takes is copying either the quote or the reference into the search bar.
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What I'm Pondering...
Still waiting to here about Adam & Eve's rainbow of children.
Well... the Church professes
Well... the Church professes belief in the Trinity because in Scripture it is made manifest that God is one (Hear, O Israel, the Lord, Your God, is One) and that there are three Divine persons in this one God (Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...).
To add persons to the Trinity would be to add to Divine Revelation. The Church has however, rejected adding to Divine Revelation, saying with St John of the Cross: "In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty."
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What I'm Listening To...
"Well... the Church
"Well... the Church professes belief in the Trinity because in Scripture it is made manifest that God is one (Hear, O Israel, the Lord, Your God, is One) and that there are three Divine persons in this one God (Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...)."
Trinitarian dogma is by no means as clear within the Scriptures as you seem to think. It took several ecumenical councils and a number of centuries to hack out this teaching.
It is not explicitly stated,
It is not explicitly stated, but the reason that the Trinity was defined the way it was is because of Scripture, and there are certainly elements of Trinitarian teaching since Christ sent the apostles to baptize all nations.
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What I'm Listening To...
God's Will be done. :-) May
God's Will be done. :-)
May the Holy Spirit of God guide Fr. Nicolas in his new role. God bless him in deed. :-)
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will