'Adopt a Priest' idea part of major Vatican push on Eucharistic Adoration
Print Friendly VersionBy JOHN L. ALLEN JR.
New York
As part of a broad initiative to promote Eucharistic adoration, the Vatican’s Congregation for Clergy is proposing that religious women “spiritually adopt priests” through prayer before the Eucharist, and, more generally, that Catholics from every corner of the world spend time before the Eucharist to pray for vocations to the priesthood in an era of priest shortages.
Concretely, the Congregation for Clergy is proposing that each diocese appoint a priest whose full-time job would be to promote Eucharistic adoration, and that special “Eucharistic shrines” be created that would resemble the well-known Marian shrines that dot the Catholic world.
The congregation also suggests that parishes, dioceses and religious orders seek donors to fund the construction of these shrines, as well as to pay for monstrances (a decorated vessel containing the consecrated host), liturgical vestments, and educational materials explaining the purpose of the devotion.
The congregation asks that Eucharistic adoration be introduced in parishes, seminaries, religious houses and other Catholic facilities. Bishops are requested to fill out a form indicating their intention to cooperate.
Consecrated women in particular are urged to "spiritually adopt priests in order to help them with their self-offering, prayer and penance" by engaging in Eucharistic adoration, following the example, Vatican officials say, of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The proposals come in a letter to all the bishops of the world, along with an accompanying leaflet outlining the project, to be released tomorrow, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. The letter is signed by Brazilian Cardinal Claudio Hummes, Prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, and Archbishop Mauro Piacenza, the congregation’s secretary.
Hummes says the idea is to stress the “ontological link between the Eucharist and the priesthood,” as well as “the special maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary for each priest.”
The initiative is styled as a response to a call from Pope Benedict XVI in his apostolic exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis, released last February as the concluding document from the October 2005 Synod on the Eucharist. In that text, Benedict urged wider practice of Eucharistic adoration.
In his letter, Hummes describes the aim of the new initiative as stimulating “a movement of prayer, placing 24-hour continuous Eucharistic adoration at the center, so that a prayer of adoration, thanksgiving, praise, petition and reparation will be raised to God, incessantly and from every corner of the earth, with the primary intention of awakening a sufficient number of holy vocations to the priestly state,” as well as promoting spiritual unity among those already ordained.
Though Hummes does not explicitly refer to global priest shortages, it seems clear that the initiative is, in part, designed as a spiritual response to a perceived lack of priests in many parts of the Catholic world. While American Catholics sometimes bemoan a shortage of clergy, in fact the priest-to-person ratio in North America is 1-1,321, the lowest in the world. The worldwide figure is 1-2,600, and in some zones it’s substantially higher. In Latin America, for example, the figure is almost 1-8,000.
Declines in the priesthood in the West have been especially acute. In 1950, for example, Europe had 249,127 priests, but by 2000 the number had dropped to 208,659, a 15 percent loss. In 2004 the total was down to 199,978. Church observers say the real European figure is actually considerably lower, since the continent’s totals are buoyed by a large number of foreign priests, mostly from the global South.
Without referring to any particular challenge, Hummes' letter says that, facing many things that need to be done "for the good of the clergy," the congregation felt it was important that the point of departure be a spiritual endeavor.
Eucharistic adoration is a practice in which the Blessed Sacrament, meaning a consecrated host believed to be the Body of Christ, is exposed publicly for prayer and adoration. When this adoration is carried out continuously 24 hours a day, the practice is known as “perpetual adoration.”
I have noticed that those
I have noticed that those opponents to a married priesthood, i.e., LayCatholicXVI, simply ignore the ministry and witness of priests in the Eastern Rites as well as those who have become Catholics after having been married Protestant ministers. Their families need to be supported and their parishes seem to rise to the occasion. Ditto for thousands of mostly small Protestant congregations throughout this country.
For many years I was a member of a small non-denominational church in which about 30% of the members were former RC. We paid our pastor $60,000 per year (this was in the late 1980s) plus benefits. Somehow that was not a problem for any of us, even the former RCs.
This idea that one can either be a shepherd to the flock or a husband/father to a family is so very wrong-headed.
I also echo jstab’s position that the institution is simply unwilling to recognize vocations where they exists: women, married men and part-timers. I do hope that the clericalists who keep the fallacy of mandated celibacy in place to the detriment of the Eucharist are prepared to justify themselves on the day of judgement; they will need to!
First of all I have no
First of all I have no problem with the Second Vatican Council I thhought that was awesome!
But many people in my parents age use to bring their own "Agenda" into the Church
My parents were Catholic but became Agnostic but became Baptist later and then became Catholic, But my parents allowed me to do what I wanted to do.
I contracted an STD when I was 16 did drugs, alcohol and you name it! All this led me to suicide attempt.
But I went to World Youth Day 2000 in Rome, and I saw JOhn Paul and all of the YOung Catholics on Fire for Christ!
I wanted to have what they wanted to have Joy and Peace! I found him and he found me!
I want to Set my Generation on Fire For Chirst! Pope John PAul Pray for US!
colkoch, Didn't Jesus say "Couldn't you stay at awake and pray with me"? Can we just give Jesus just a couple of minutes to adore him?
The Eucharist in the Tabernacle is taken to the monstrance and the faithful Adore it!
Also nobody is "Devout" even I am not we are striving for Holiness it is Jesus Christ that we should look to. I am just his lowely servant!!!
Colkoch Eucharistic Adoration is a time to pour our hearts to God. Why did you say "There is no place for Eucharistic Adoration"?
We spent so much time looking for the things in life to make us happy but we forget to invite Christ in our hearts.
I just graduated from College and I wanted to make a lot of money but I wanted to do something greater. I am a Missionary for FOCUS (Fellowship of CAtholic University STudents)
I just don;t understand Progressive CAtholics they preach tolerance and "Different opinions" but if somenone who is really serious about their faith they go out and bash it.
All of you should be happy that Young people like myselfe who try to follow Christ instead of binge drinking although I used to that and how are really preaching the Gospel to College students. Instead its bashing the YOung CAtholics.
Its sad that many in this fourm bash Young Catholics who live their faith daily.It proves that Christ is not in their hearts and that Progresive CAtholics like to boast about "TOLERANCE" AND DON'T GIVE ME THE RESPECT TO Voice my opinion! Why is it that Young CAtholics like myself get persecuted for being Orthodox and don't get praised?
It okay we all will have to anser to God someday!
Many in my generation are hurting and look for the wrong places to find happiness instead of Christ. INSTEAD MANY BASH THE OPPORTUNITY TO BASH THE CHURCH!, It seems people who type the word CAtholic, have every intention to complain about it?
Christ makes us happy! Spend some time in Adoration, there is this song called "HEart of Worship" we have to pour our hearts to God our ups downs and lows!
Colkoch God is waiting for you in Eucharistic Adoration. I invite all of you to YOUTH 2000 YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE YOUNG BUT YOUNG OF HEART!
"What's your guess as to the percentages between the indifferent and the heartily conservative. Amongst my friends kids and my daughter's friends the trend seems to be 9 indifferent for one devout conservative."
Okay did you ever notice that many Traditional Catholic Orders like the Sisters of MAry Mother of the Eucharist, Fraternity of Christ the King Soverigne Priest, Franciscan Friars of the Renewal have many YOuthful Vocations.
What about the Vibrant Catholic University and Colleges that are Orthodox, like Franciscan University of Steubenville, Benedictine College, John Paul II University of San Diego, Christendom College, Ave Maria University and Thomas Aquinas College.
Catholic Student groupos like FOCUS Fellowship of Catholic University Students are on Campus all over the country.
Jstab, you said "Eucharistic Adoration" doesn't promote Vocations name a "Progressive Diocese" that is doing good in vocations?
Also Pleae read "TIDE IS TURNING TO CATHOLICISM BY DAVID HARTLINE"
You will get the idea of what I am talking about.
Did anybody read Collen Carroll Campbell "THE NEW FAITHFUL WHY THE YOUNG ARE EMBRACING CHRISTIAN ORTHODOXY"?
JPII Generation, what do you
JPII Generation, what do you see as bashing young catholics in these threads? I've gone back over some (can't do them all!) threads and I sure don't see it. That seems to me to be a false charge. There aren't many young catholics that talk on this site, but I would suggest that that is perhaps because they do see this, as HT recently called it, as "enemy territory." But that doesn't make it so, and I think that is simply a projection of what people want to see because then they know what the rules of engagement are and do themselves feel comfortable. If I were again in my twenties, I would guess that I would have difficulty engaging in long conversation with people more my parents' age or older. That's a part of being twentysomething. Of course, I'd also be out 'climbing mountains' much more than I'd be blogging at all, but then that's me.
The rules of engagement here are more those of conversation and relationship. Since these are conversations on here, those who stay on here do probably like to converse. One thing that has been very real on this site is that the people on here will talk to anyone. There are those who don't respond, or don't respond long enough to make a conversation, but that doesn't mean that the "regulars" are not willing to talk.
According to HT, we are the laughing stock of other websites that we are somehow afraid to go to. I find that very amusing myself. But I think that since we are generally more mature on this site, we actually already know that enemy camps and numbers of "one-way-ers" swooping down on someone is not really worth our energy, since we're not at war to start with. Most of us probably left that behind somewhere along the way, if we ever had that perspective on life. I had my moment of tasting other websites in brief unexpected 'battle' with spiritfed when I first sat down in the cafe, and I wouldn't go out of my way for more of that disrespectful nonsense. :-)
So, let's start the conversation. Is there anything in this response that you see as bashing you?
JP II Generation I enjoy the
JP II Generation I enjoy the dialogue on this board, and have try to make it a point not to 'bash' someone for their piety or devotion. I see nothing in any of the posts I have on this thread which attacks or bashes anyone for their devotion.
"Colkoch Eucharistic Adoration is a time to pour our hearts to God. Why did you say "There is no place for Eucharistic Adoration"? I would be glad to answer that for you, except I never wrote it.
I have no problem with any expression of Catholic faith. Whether or not I get a lot out of certain forms of expression is a whole different issue. My question concerned any real qualitative difference between the Presence in the tabernacle and Eucharistic Adoration. Some people feel more in the 'presence' with the Host visible in a monstrance. I don't. For me the Presence is present no matter how presented, and Jesus is waiting for me any time I want to connect with His Life.
I'm glad that FOCUS is a blessing for you, but you also have to understand something else about FOCUS. The Catholic school my daughter attends, and that I graduated from, disbanded FOCUS because the members became overly zealous in their judgements regarding their fellow students and some faculty members not under the mandatum. Like you, they developed something of a seige mentality and attacked far too frequently, becoming too devisive.
Christianity, and therefor Catholicism, at it's core, is about personal spiritual transformation. A gift you seemed to have recieved. Just don't forget that the 'gift' came far differently for Peter than it did for Paul, or Martha, or the Samaritan woman at the well. Jesus knew full well that there were different and unique approaches for all of us.
If I resent anything, it's the assumption that one spiritual tradition or practice in Catholicism is more efficacious than any other. That may be true for you, but it isn't for me.
I've found this thread
I've found this thread fascinating, but I have a couple of questions. Could one of you devout JPII people explain to me if their is a qualitative difference between a consecrated host in a monstrance and the consecrated hosts in the Tabernacle. As a child, and now as an adult, I was never sure why we needed Eucharistic Adoration when Christ was already present on the altar in the Tabernacle. I always assumed it was just a visual, ceremonial thing and not an experiential thing.
My second question revolves around the status of men in the Church. It seems that males who are not ordained count for very little in the thinking of the Hierarchy. Gosh, in this arcticle men are not referred to at all except in terms of the priesthood. It seems obvious that Cardinal Humme sees more potential in the prayers of religious women than the prayers of non ordained men, and as someone else mentioned, perpetual adoration is mostly the result of the volunteer efforts of lay women.
Maybe lay men are only expected to pay, not having the maternal connection to the Virgin Mary. I guess they can't be in 'persona' Mary, so to speak. Maybe that's why religious brothers don't figure into this equation either. Makes my head hurt, it does. Have we really gotten to the point where the Congregation for the Clergy ranks whose prayers are better than others and for what causes?
Colkoch, you bring up this
Colkoch, you bring up this interesting issue of the regular menfolk in the church, which I have also puzzled over. I think your point is well taken and that these are really the least in the kingdom, at least when it comes to attention by the hierarchy anyhow. It seems that they are mostly supposed to be satisfied by living off the secondary privilege from the men-only policy for the priesthood. Obviously, some are and most aren't, and those who aren't have been themselves seeking a place in a church in which they have little voice. Let's face it, sex is always an issue that commands the most attention by men! Control it, offend it, glorify it, whatever it--but never the eyes off the most interesting of people! Thus the clerical culture of "locker-room" assessments of women--it's the only appropriate way to be able to keep us ever on their minds...
It makes my head hurt too.
It makes my head hurt too.
I'm sure this calling upon women religious to pray is based solely on their biological similarities to the Virgin Mary.
Since the people praying are not in the physical presence of those for whose benefit they are praying, why should their bearing a physical resemblance to Mary be meaningful, since, as is suggested by your questions, it should be possible for men to pray successfully for Mary's style of comforting goodness to be conveyed to or bestowed upon priests?
Given the uniqueness of the mother-son relationship, I'm thinking that the thinking is that if priests begin to feel this mystical grace coming upon them, they will find it more sustaining if they associate it with being mothered as opposed to either not knowing where it is coming from, knowing it is coming from the general population, or, God forbid, thinking that it is coming from an attractive woman in the parish.
It ssad that many
It ssad that many comments on this page have negative attitudes towards Eucharistic Adoration.
Fr. John Corapi SOLT, mention about the Eucharist the Heart of the Church. Eucharistic Adoration is when we fall to our knees and worship Christ lost in Adoration.
Once again I advise anyone to go to a YOUTH 2000 retreat by the Fransican Sisters of the Renewal and Fr. Stan Fortuna (Rapping PRiest)
I mention earlier about what's hip and modern that it will go out of style, well many of the Hip Hop songs I listen to usually goes out of style in 6 months!
As a Young Catholic, Perpetual Adoration is very good for the Church. Has anybody notice that more "ORthodox" Catholic Archdiocese like Denver, Omaha, Lincoln, and the Diocese of Kansas CIty LEd by Bishop Finn has a growing number of Vocations. (PRomote PErpetual Adoration) And Religious oreders like the Dominican Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist and the Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia (Washington Post)
I am seriously thinking about joining the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal founded by Fr. Benedict Groeschel and Fr. Stan Forutna.
"acoolmom007" why do you call the Eucahristic Monstrance a Golden Calf? When I was in HOnduras, the Monstrance was made of wood but Christ in the Monstrance was there! ITS HIM HE IS OUR GOD TRULY PRESENT IN THE EUCHARIST!
Its no wonder why YOung CAhtolics like myself who are really serious about their faith see the "Spirit of Vatican II" Mantra baby boomers irrelevant and still stucK in the 1960's
Word of advice to you, whats considered "Modern and hip" today would go out of style in 20 or 30 years. It will fade out like Britney SPears and Madonna moment.
YOu all should attend a YOUTH 2000 Rally led by the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal to see the Awesomeness of the Eucharist!
The Religion of Spirit What
The Religion of Spirit
What do you think about this JPII Generation? A religion not based on a denominational Faith, But A FAITH IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD! A religion based on Spirit, not crystallized creeds, doctrines and dogmas.
I think the Religion of Spirit will pervade men and women's hearts. It will cross denominational boundaries and international borders. We will begin to see what joins us all on this earth rather than what separates us. Our Love for one another will grow. Jews will hug Muslims. Muslims will hug Christians. Hindus, Sufis, Taoists, all will Love their brothers and sisters of the earth. It has begun. We have seen it.
The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leading of the spirit may take you. And who can judge--perhaps this spirit may have something to impart to this generation which other generations have refused to hear?
The religion of the spirit requires only unity of experience--uniformity of destiny--making full allowance for diversity of belief. The religion of the spirit requires only uniformity of insight, not uniformity of viewpoint and outlook. The religion of the spirit does not demand uniformity of intellectual views, only unity of spirit feeling. The religions of authority crystallize into lifeless creeds; the religion of the spirit grows into the increasing joy and liberty of ennobling deeds of loving service and merciful ministration.
Do you know the Presence of Jesus you felt while prostrating yourself in front of the Eucharist, focusing yourself on repentance of your sins (errors)and as you Feel His Peace and Love come over you and you are saddened by your imperfections but buoyed up by His Love of You. And you ask for His help and Guidance in conjunction with the Father and Holy Spirit to guide you and heal your weaknesses and strengthen your Spirit.
Now imagine living a life where you can reach that same mystical state and receive the Same Loving healing and Guidence of His presence, in your bedroom, alone in your car while driving, in the woods, or any quiet place where you can reach the meditative state focusing on your Love of Christ and Christ's Love for you and bring His Presence into your Life. And as you devote yourself daily to doing's God's Will and you pray for your needs in helping others as you Go. Imagine Jesus becoming the Living Spirit of God within your heart. "The Kingdom of God is within you".
I can tell your are an individual on a path of Living a spirit-led Life. And while you profoundly felt Christ's Presence in adoration of Christ through the Exposition of the Eucharist in the Monstrance in Honduras, I felt the presence of Christ among 30 to 40 villagers gathered to celebrate their Love of God at their Sunday celebration of the WORD in their remote village in Copopayo, El Salvador. And as the Church they built was locked because the main person with the key had gone to Town for necessities and the spare key was missing. And as they seemed a bit disappointed because they always celebrate inside the church. I spoke up.
"Let's celebrate it right here." And right away the women religious leaders of the community backed me, the stranger in their midst, up. "We're the church, all of us right here," they said. I said, "We can get chairs from the clinic, I had the key and we can set them in the shade in front of the church underneath the ceiling of God's clear blue sky that morning in front of God and the whole village we can offer up our faith. And we did and I felt Christ Presence among His people. They all did.
They'll remember that day I'm sure. So will I. Thank God.
JPII generation, here’s a couple of old threads where we discussed What the Presence of the Eucharist really is. Unfortunately much of our research and sources and links from deleted or lost posts are gone. But Jesus in John 6:60-69 explains to the Apostles what He really meant when he said “Body and Blood.�. And a reference from St Cyril., here today may still have the link, shows that ST Cyril in the third century I believe understood clearly what Jesus was explaining to the Apostles in John 6:60-69. Most people don’t get it and they get stuck on the physical Body and Blood rather than The Real Presence which is what you referred to and I believe you’ve been touched by, as have many here. :-)
This week’s Gospel answers the Bread of Life Question. - John 6:60-69
http://ncrcafe.org/node/400
The Bread of Life
http://ncrcafe.org/node/377
May God guide and heal us in the ways we need to be better spiritual beings even while here on earth. God Bless You JPII generation. Peace be with you and all here.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will
That doesn't seem to reflect
That doesn't seem to reflect the spirit of the JPII generation. That puts Catholicism as an equal amoung peers. I don't think that was JPII and certainly not B16. If it were, Peter Phan would be getting praised rather than investigated.
As happens, you're seeing
As happens, you're seeing what you wanted to see on these pages. The comments aren't about Eucharistic Adoration, and by golly, most of us were awed by the Eucharist before you were probably a twinkle in your grandmother's and grandfather's eyes. The comments are about the vatican missive, which would seem to carry many messages other than awe.
I have not spent a lot of
I have not spent a lot of time doing eucharistic adoration but I consider it "Catholic-style meditation practice" and as such, I do not disdain it.
However, this approach smacks of what I call "Pop-machine God" where someone puts something in--the prayers, the indulgences, the novenas--and expects something to come back out--health restored, relationships improved, or more priests.
As my husband likes to ask, "Does prayer change us or does it change God?"
Can we pray God into changing his mind about sending more vocations? Making an illness prone body whole again? etc? Or are we hoping for the grace of acceptance of whatever challenges come our way? Or to paraphrase, the courage to change those things I can, the serenity to accept those I cannot change or the wisdom to know the difference?
And so, I think acoolmom is asking an important question: Is Christ on the altar more important than Christ in us? Is this the bishops really "best" response to a shortage of priests to offer communion, Christ within us?
The obvious answer becomes we need it all--the community of the Mass, the time for solitary meditation practice, etc.
So I do not think that necessarily everyone who writes here disparages Eucharistic Adoration
"Its no wonder why YOung
"Its no wonder why YOung CAhtolics like myself who are really serious about their faith see the "Spirit of Vatican II" Mantra baby boomers irrelevant and still stucK in the 1960's."
Speak for yourself, JPII Generation. I'm 30, "serious about my faith," and completely disagree that Vatican II and those who proclaim it are irrelevant. I know plenty of other young Catholics who are strong in their faith and are terribly troubled by the Church's conservative stances. Sadly, I know plenty of others who have drifted away from the faith because they feel insulted by an institution that does not value all human beings equally.
I agree with you when you say that God is truly present in the Eucharist. So what does it say about our church when, by only allowing ordained celibate men to perform the sacrament, it makes it harder and harder for lay Catholics to partake in the Eucharist? As a member of my parish says, the church is sinfully valuing celibacy over the Eucharist.
"Speak for yourself, JPII
"Speak for yourself, JPII Generation. I'm 30, "serious about my faith," and completely disagree that Vatican II and those who proclaim it are irrelevant."
I'm guessing here, but I think that JPII Generation would agree with me when I say there is no problem with V-II or those who proclaim it, like Benedict XVI. There are massive problems with the ideas pushed in the name of the 'spirit' of the Council (which deserves another thread).
btw, 24 here and the young catholics I know are either heartily conservative or indifferent to their faith.
++++++
What I'm Listening To...
What's your guess as to the
What's your guess as to the percentages between the indifferent and the heartily conservative. Amongst my friends kids and my daughter's friends the trend seems to be 9 indifferent for one devout conservative.
When I even mention spirituality within this age group, I have to take a circuitous route, more along the lines of Sylvester's writings than Benedict's and more along the lines of Peter Phan than JPII and what I've found is that many of them have had very profound spiritual experiences which don't necessarily fit within their past Catholic teachings. It saddens me that we may lose almost an entire gifted generation because the message has been lost in the madness and the meaness.
"Consecrated women in
"Consecrated women in particular are urged to 'spiritually adopt priests in order to help them with their self-offering, prayer and penance' by engaging in Eucharistic adoration, following the example, Vatican officials say, of the Blessed Virgin Mary."
" 'Hummes says the idea is to stress the “ontological link between the Eucharist and the priesthood,' as well as 'the special maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary for each priest.' �
***
I find this whole idea faintly creepy. And as for the "special maternity", it sounds like an effort to co-opt women further into an idea of sexless love relationships--an effort to norm sexless relationships. I understand that this probably doesn't have to be creepy or sinister but I cannot help but feel that this is not a healthy idea. I remember in my youth, priests sometimes had faithful "housekeepers"--women who went with them from parish to parish and kept house for them. Many and probably most of these were probably just what they said they were--a woman who kept house for a man. But I understand now that some of these were more likely consummated or non-consummated long term, committed relationships. And that just seems sad to me.
The housekeeper thing is
The housekeeper thing is definitely creepy, but the ontological link thing and the Blessed Virgin's maternity for each priest is spooky. It will have an affect, but it would be wise to remember the words of St. Theresa of Avila that "more tears are shed over answered prayers than unanswered ones". When people pray for things to happen to or for others, those who have been prayed for had better not be the kind of people who like to be in control of everything.
The parish I serve as pastor
The parish I serve as pastor has perpetual exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. We have been encouraging prayer for priests and for vocations to the priesthood, religious life, and family life. We have three men presently studying for the priesthood. Four men have been ordained from this parish. While I welcome the initiative of the Congregation for the Clergy and am confident that it will do a lot of good, it demonstrates how far out of touch the Vatican is with the church at the parish level. We need priests now. There are many who are qualified to serve who would welcome the opportunity to do so. I'm referring to our many deacons who are in stable marriages that bear witness to Christ's love for the church. What will it take for those in authority to acknowledge that we are living in a new world that can profit from the example of marriage and family life in the priestly ministry. Why should all priests be full time? I know lot's of priests whose full time jobs takes them far afield from pastoral ministry. The aging clergy of this day could use the assistance provided by a married clergy, especially one that comes out of the ranks of those who understand how the church works. I am not opposed to ordaining other mature married men; and I am strongly in favor of encouraging men to seek a vocation to both celibacy and priestly ministry. I have not made mention of ordaining women because, as we all know, this is a practice whose time has not yet come.
Good thinking. Ordained for
Good thinking. Ordained for a particular calling. Rememeber simplex priests? (I don't - but I remember other priests talking about it) During their 1st year they only had faculties to say mass.
It doesn't make sense to
It doesn't make sense to have a lot of married priests as our support of the parish needs to go to educating young people in the faith and helping the poor with financial and food and housing assistance. Married priests mean providing an income of at least $50,000/year so they can support their families. I do not want my titheing to go towards the support of the priest's families. Also, if a married priest were to get divorced that would cause scandal to the church. A priest needs to just concentrate on being a shephard to his sheep and his spouse the Church. A Priest should not have two spouses.
God forbid that we Catholics
God forbid that we Catholics actually provide a living wage for people in our ministry! Remember the good old days when sisters were virtually unpaid slaves? Of course, the priests lived pretty well but, then, they gave up the right to marry, right? Sisters, well, most of them probably weren't marriage material anyway, so they really weren't losing anything.
Until Catholics get over the idea the Penury is one of the Commandments of the Church, they will continue to fall further and further away from being a Eucharistic community. Perpetual Adoration isn't the same as being a Eucharistic community!
Well, it is true that if we
Well, it is true that if we had married priests we'd have divorce and problems with their kids sometimes and other things. But protestant demoninations have weathered this for years, successfully. As it is, priests who endeavor to counsel couples premaritally certainly lack a certain authenticity. And I am not arguing that definitively. As a nurse, I took care of children before I was married and I helped people but there is nothing like spending time with your own inconsolable cranky infant to add authenticity to how you interact with families.
Conversely, the a celibate priesthood has not guaranteed a lack of scandal. We have had sexual affairs, abuse of power, and of course pedophilia, sanctioned by the hierarchy for the "greater good".
The challenge is not to be scandal free. Sometimes this kind of intense heart-ache whether it be pastoral divorce or a pedophilia scandal sets the stage for better insight, an understanding of the need for universal forgiveness, a better understanding of the limits of what the church can and should ask of people. This is not a call to allow a free-fall of repeating sin and error; it is a call to love and embrace all and learn from mistakes. Minister to people in the way that Jesus did.
We cannot escape, personally, our inherent humanity. This means mistakes will be made. "forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
I watch a young priest in our parish. He is very devoted but he has been raised in such a loving and dynamic family that I sense his sadness and ambivalence at giving that up. He'd be s super dad. I watched him touch a nephew with such tenderness that it touched my heart. Now I do not _know_ that this is a dilemma for him but I sense it. Perhaps I impose my own thoughts on his situation.
Will he successfully sublimate his need for marriage and parenthood or will he sublimate his need for the priesthood? He is young, he is ordained. He's made a step in that direction. Does God really ask us to suppress such equal goods?
I just think are a few more shades of gray than what is inferred by the above response.
I would not worry too much
I would not worry too much about whether young men, or even old ones, sometimes feel they have given up something in becoming celibate priests. There are certainly enough ways for married men and fathers to serve God that it should not have been necessary for them to become celibate priests in order to do so.
Priesthood offers compensations for giving up the blessings and burdens that come with marriage and fatherhood. Furthermore, relationships with sisters, brothers, nieces, nephews, and friends can be just as rewarding as with spouse and children. Consider, too, that there are many men who are not priests who would have been fine husbands and fathers but never married and had children, or who were fine husbands but were never blessed with children.
I think that the determination of how to employ married men as priests, which is done, needs to be left up to those who run the Church. For example, would it still be possible to order priests to serve where needed if in most cases there were spouses and offspring to consider?
"Will he successfully
"Will he successfully sublimate his need for marriage and parenthood or will he sublimate his need for the priesthood?"
The problem with this view (which is all to common, especially among celibates), is that it leaves out the option of fulfilling the desire for marriage and children within the context of the celibate life (this of course is not limited to priests, but religious brothers and sisters as well).
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Tell me how that
Tell me how that looks---fulfilling the desire for marriage and children within the context of the celibate life. Is that being married and then later becoming celibate (widowed) and then becoming a priest? Or something else?
I am curious.
Sorry I lost track of this
Sorry I lost track of this thread and the clumsiness of the response that follows...
Speaking from personal experience, I had a 'vocation crisis' (as Vocation directors would call it) at the point when my older brother got married and started having children. I saw (again) how good the call to married life is, and struggled with whether I was called to give up having children of my own. As I come from a big family, and we were going through a rough time after Dad died, family was extremely important.
After much prayer, and reading from the lives of the saints, I came to the realization of what I had already known: that children begotten in the flesh are not necessarily any closer or more truly ones children than those begotten in the Spirit. (Also by that time I had assumed some responsibility for the care of four souls: two god-children, one now fatherless, and two young people I had sponsored for confirmation, again one now fatherless.) Are not these just as much my children as if I had brought them into this world? Would not any souls under my care be as much my children, if I were to become a priest, or even a lay brother (another option that I was grappling with)? I found that the answer was that these were indeed my children, in a very real sense, and that any future souls that I may be entrusted with would like-wise be children.
And marriage... If only I could put it into words! I actually tried recently, to do just that, with a not particularly religious co-worker who has trouble understanding the concept of custody of the eyes, let alone celibacy. I will try to start with what managed to bridge the gap somewhat in that conversation...
While not an exact parallel with marriage, I must start with the relationship with Jesus. For anyone seeking to be loved, what greater lover can be found than Christ? He exemplified the greatest act of love possible, the gift of Himself, even to a horrible death, for us, for me, for you, even while we rejected Him. So reserving yourself solely for the one who loved you to such an extent ought to be conceivable.
Then we turn to the question of marriage more closely and we look at the priest as alter Chritus, another Christ. The Bible speaks of Christ's Bride (no not Mary Magdelene, sorry Dan Brown), the only possible Bride for God-come-Man, the Church. To take on the priestly role of Christ is to take on as well His role as bridegroom to the Church. To be married, not to a job, or a group of people, or a building, but to the whole physical manifestation of what Christ proclaimed. From the Apostles to now, all the writings, teachings, people, art, music, architecture, poetry, all that is Catholic, all this is bound up into one. How can I not choose this broader love?
As I write this I am reminded of the episode where Peter protest about how the Twelve have given up everything to follow Jesus and Jesus responds: "Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time; houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting." (Mark 10:29-30)
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Our religious sisters are
Our religious sisters are very aptly named - Sisters. Many of them would surely express as the outworking of their chaste, celibate vocation the privilege of being a sister to everyone.
In England I think people widely understand this; Sisters are instinctively recognised as being outside class distinctions, welcome among all strata of society
Englishwoman
here today, let's talk about
here today, let's talk about custody of the eyes. Until I read "Unveiled" by Cheryl Reed, I had never heard of this. However, I had experienced the effect of this being practiced in response to my genuine friendliness.
Not only was I taught to look at people and smile when I meet them, but I have found this to be generally appreciated except by certain Catholic and Arabs.
When someone practices custody of the eyes in response to my greeting, the effect is the same as if they had called me a slut. So, how is custody of the eyes a good thing?
I haven't read the book you
I haven't read the book you reference, Marie R., but I agree with your sense that the inability or unwillingness or odd beliefs of some priests regarding looking at women does little but create discomfort and point out the sexual tension that the priest is experiencing. Better the priest comfortable in his own skin, who can appreciate the personhood and sexuality of a woman at the same time. HT, I tend to agree with your co-worker who sounds like she is reacting to the obvious issue that if someone is avoiding looking at women they can be making just as big and uncomfortable statement that their mind is really focused on the sexuality, and worse, to do so, is for them to be un-spiritual or sinful. At their core and at their best, sexual energy and spiritual energy can be an integrated energy, at least for women. Priests would do best to work at healthiness and wholeness to begin with, rather than training themselves simply to control relationships through trained behaviors. Human service professionals, male and female, have to find a better way, so I would guess it's not really that difficult.
'Custody of the eyes', at
'Custody of the eyes', at least as I have encountered the phrase (granted in a conservative Catholic context), is a reference to guys tendency to look a little too long or hard are certain parts of the female body.
I agree that making eye (to eye) contact is important, but really that's where the eyes should be staying for the most part. Said co-worker thinks otherwise...
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For the purposes of staying
For the purposes of staying out "of love", it is probably better to look at the other parts than to do frequent or prolonged looking at the eyes. Custody of the mind is a better discipline than custody of the eyes.
This is a beatiful
This is a beatiful testimony. Does it have an ending or are you still working it out?
I may have dropped a hint at
I may have dropped a hint at where I think I'm headed in the 3 wishes thread, but this is definately a work in progress (as am I).
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HereToday, Thank you for
HereToday,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
My husband's parents divorced when he was quite young and he had a small constellation of adult men who were willing to be important male figures to him as he grew up. ANd he was better for it.
So I really understand and appreciate what you are saying. I agree that your explanation perfectly shows how people who choose the route of celibacy sublimate. I do not use the term sublimation disparagingly. Websters defines it as: to divert the expression of (an instinctual desire or impulse) from its unacceptable form to one that is considered more socially or culturally acceptable. The Allpsych dictionary defines sublimation as: A defense mechanism where undesired or unacceptable impulses are transformed into behaviors which are accepted by society.
I personally benefitted from a mother who sublimated her frustrations with me through weed pulling and yeast bread making.
But when the church makes marriage and the priesthood together an undesireable expression and demands that one or the other be sublimated, many people lose. The church loses priests, individuals lose the opportunity to express two equally important vocations.
I am not saying that every priest or lay person who purposefully chose celibacy is psychologically abberrant. Sublimation is not a dysfunctional impulse, or at least it does not have to be. I mostly think of it as a functional device. Celibacy is a choice and an important and life-giving choice for some.
The rub comes for me in, "Why _must_ it be mandated?" as if sexuality and a priestly vocation are mutually exclusive.
Sublimation as an
Sublimation as an explanation of the celibate life has problems. In my case, for example, I am not adverse to thoughts of marriage and family (and society is less adverse to this than to celibacy), nor am I unconsciously reacting against them (rather I am rationally reconciling them), I am not suppressing one desire (as you suggested in an earlier post) but fulfilling it in another way. So yes, there is some similarity to sublimation, and in many cases that is probably true, but only because of a lack of formation (and perhaps the calling).
The Church would rather have celibacy and the priesthood be chosen together, yet each for their own sake. She does not desire servants, but husbands. Their ought not to be a defense mechanism guarding a part of the priest from his Spouse.
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One short answer on the continuation of mandated celibacy: Holy Mother Church will not be bossed around. It is a historical fact that the easiest way to ensure that a matter is tabled for fifty or five hundred years is to push vehemently for it. (see: 'Luther, Martin' and 'Vatican II')
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Why must sexuality always mean intercourse?
Here Today, I don't have any
Here Today, I don't have any large disagreement with what you say in terms of it being another way to view the issue. OBviously you think of the term "sublimation" like a punishment word, like say "liberal" or "sensitive guy" ;-), but I don't necessarily. So I guess we're going to have to agree to disagee in resolving some of those points.
In response to your question, "Why must sexuality always mean intercourse?"--to me, it does not. I have actually stated that rather explicitly between the two threads. And to counter, my question is, "Why must the priesthood and marriage, family and sexuality to include interocurse be seen as mutually exclusive?" And, that's the rub.
"The rub comes for me in,
"The rub comes for me in, "Why _must_ it be mandated?" as if sexuality and a priestly vocation are mutually exclusive."
"Does God really ask us to suppress such equal goods?"
I'm responding to your either/or statements that the desire for family is somehow opposed to the celibate priesthood, that it is impossible to fulfill both at the same time. (therein lies my problem with sublimation)
To answer your revised question: They aren't (or at least not all). The denial of sexuality to the celibate life is part of the abuse problem: men are not taught to expect urges and desires (these ought to be sublimated), nor how to deal with them. The denial of family to the priest isolates the priest (the father of the parish family) but the desires toward family can be fulfilled in the priesthood.
As you say, there may be shades you aren't seeing.
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HereToday, I have to admit
HereToday, I have to admit that a vascillated on this reply. I want you to understand that I really feel like we've had the meat and potatoes of this discussion and that even I don't think this posting will add a lot.
And a psychologist once accused my DH and I of having a hang-up on semantics, so towards proving him right, here goes.
I think in reading in the sciences I will sometimes stumble upon a scientific approximation of a spiritual idea. For me, this is foremostly shown in discussions about meditation and health benefits. I think these studies describe some measureable benefits to meditation/prayer but they do not entirely encapsulate it or describe it. I actually think this is not unlike your issue with the term sublimation.
But I want to give you just a tiny crumb of food for thought. Within marriage sublimation of the sexual urge often occurs on both sides. A marriage license is not an unlimited entitlement to "paw and claw". Obviously couples who practice Fertility Awareness do so in order to avoid intercourse during fertile times BUT may choose other sexual expression. I would say they sublimate; you would describe it in spiritual terms. The net impact is that the couple discovers another or deeper dimension to their relationship. Likewise, I believe that male partners who cherish their partner as a person will respect the medical recommendation to abstain from intercourse for some weeks after delivery. Anyone whose relationship withstood grad school, major career undertakings, significant illness, separation such as that in military service has sublimated their sexual urge, and other key urges, even the need to lean on that person emotionally.
In a mature individuals life, the notion of not indulging a want, a desire, a need for some greater good should not be a foreign idea.
I love Ghandi's Seven Deadly Sins for this reason:
Wealth without work,
Pleasure without conscience,
Knowledge without character,
Commerce without morality,
Science without humanity,
Worship without sacrifice, and
Politics without principle.
the seven deadly sins - mahatma gandhi
So I think it is a narrow view to think that priests through celibacy practice "the highest" level of denial and engage in a superlative level of spirituality. And you may not feel that is what you purport, but from my perspective, it sort of feels that way.
Take this only as it is offered--as a crumb of food for thought.
and let's not leave out the
and let's not leave out the forced to be chaste gays.
ALL of us are called to be
ALL of us are called to be chaste. All those who are not married are called to be continent. Those who are called to religious life are also called to be celibate.
Chastity depends on your state in life, and it is possible to lack chastity without actually engaging in physical relations.
Continence is the refraining from said relations.
And Celibacy is the vowed foregoing of marriage, thus perpetual continence is included here.
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Likewise it is possible to
Likewise it is possible to be chaste while thoroughly enjoying marital sex.
How insulting...calling on
How insulting...calling on women to pray for the Eucharist when they are perfectly capable of being ordained to actually perform the sacrament themselves.
Not all Religious Sister
Not all Religious Sister want to be priests, you seem to take that as a given
WEll, gee, ya know, it's
WEll, gee, ya know, it's worth a try. But I'd like to go further than just having (mostly women) praying for priests. I'd like us to have a way to really "adopt" a priest to pray for, kind of like the way we used to pay money to adopt pagan babies that we could name. I've got more money now than then, and I was really good at this; in fact, I think I had the most pagan babies lined up in my whole school at one time...and I was very egalitarian about having equal girl names and boy names...
Of course, we'd have to do this a bit differently, although perhaps they would let us name them as well? I'd like to be able to get a snapshot and summary about my priest, and perhaps correspond with him also. We could get information as to their strengths and weaknesses, and we could write them notes letting them know we are praying for their relief from sins as well as problems and stresses, and even offer them spiritual direction along with the prayers. I like this. Very personal. Very womanly. I'm right with you on this one...on my gravestone, SHE WAS MOTHER TO ALL PRIESTS.
My parish in Steubenville
My parish in Steubenville did this for the Pre-Theologate program (seminarians and others discerning). Twice a year we held a big dinner for all the Pre-The's and the families that sponsored them. They also were involved with organizing youth days (about once a month) for the children of the parish.
There are also the project Andrew style of young men (& women) discerning religious life having a day or evening of recollection and dinner with the priests (a local parish does this on a regular basis and has about a dozen boys and young men discerning call to the priesthood).
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WEll, it sounds like you did
WEll, it sounds like you did this as a community, or as priests supporting potential priests, which is a bit different than saying that religious women take the lead in this new strategy. Perhaps a bit different?, and certainly not unlike what many parishes and dioceses do, even outside of Steubenville. You, of course, know that I was being a bit facetious about this emphasis on women carrying the water for the clergy again, again(although we all understand that one of the reasons for the decrease in vocations to the priesthood is that mothers aren't pushing it so much with their sons).
I'm thinking of the possibilities of "Ontological Difference" cards in this regard, sort of holy cards of priests and seminarians that women could carry around with them or pin to their clothes...(oh, have a laugh for once, HT, you deserve/need it!).
A bit different, but not
A bit different, but not similar enough that if one is as horrible as some are making it out to be then why would the other be acceptable, or vice versa? Yes there is this support in many places, at Stuebie it was a little different as it gave the students a 'home away from home'.
If we were looking to point blame (which I don't think we are?) I would lay a larger share at the feet of the fathers who want their sons to carry on the family name or prove their manhood by having children.
As far as the cards...I wonder if that set of Pre-The trading cards we made up ever got printed...(This of course done with pictures from 'dress-up' nights where we broke university regulations by finding clerics, cassocks, and making habits for various Franciscan orders, ah crazy times).
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My vote is with jstab. I
My vote is with jstab. I think the Spirit is sending plenty of vocations but the institutional Church is refusing to accept them. I don't pray for vocations, but rather that the hard hearts in Rome be softened.
I guess the prayers aren't working. Since the Eucharist will not be available to us, we need to worship it in golden vessels from a distance. Golden Calves, anyone??
In promoting organ
In promoting organ transplants an organisation I know told the story of a man who needed a kidney transplant. He turned down the first kidney because it was black and the second it was a toung spanish woman. He died. Does this remind anyone of the Church's attitude to Vocations? I notice that in our church we pray for laborers in the vinyard [it may be because of my complaining ]but I hope I never again hear a prayer for vocations to the Priesthood and Religious life. I believe God selects those he can use from those who are willing. He does not discriminate --why does the church?
What never ceases to amaze
What never ceases to amaze me is the need to emphasize the many well-education, holy, exemplary women who would make good priests.
On the other hand, any male who can walk and chew gum these days and says he wants to be a priest is welcomed with open arms and pushed through until ordination unless he truly is the scum of the earth.
An average, competent woman today is fully equal to much of what comes out of our seminaries, and most likely would last longer once the going gets a bit tough.