When the same is not the same
Print Friendly Version| From Where I Stand by Joan Chittister, OSB | July 26, 2007 |
| Vol. 5, No. 8 |
Perhaps one of the best ways to discover who we are as a culture is to go visit some other culture. The experience is an interesting one.
One of the most exciting parts of the excursion is the opportunity it gives us to discover the effects of history on us -- as a people, as a culture, even as a church.
This last month, for instance, I've been in New Zealand and Australia. Believe me, however much we look alike, we are different peoples.
As I heard Australians talk about themselves and the worldview with which they'd grown up -- a British outpost in an Asian sea -- I became fascinated with the idea of how unlike people can be, no matter how alike their roots, traditions and cultures may seem to be at first glance.
We -- Americans and Australians -- do seem very similar in many ways: We speak the same language. We are both people agleam with a sense of newness, technology, wealth and "progress." We are self-confident types, secure in our affluence, certain of our pragmatism. We do not view the rest of the world with diffidence or timidity. We are both can-do people, a kind of modern colossi in a still developing world. And we both spring from the same root. Or so it appears.
But, I discovered, there are deep differences among us, too.
"Characterize the Australian Catholic church for me," I asked group after group, person after person, as we talked.
"What will happen here as a result of the restoration of the Latin Mass, for instance?" I asked in an attempt to make the question immediate and real, to discover in the answers something specific about the present nature of the church. I expected deep and reflective answers, full of either triumph or tension, tainted with concern or confusion. Thoughtful. Maybe even a bit anguished. Cautious.
Forget it. The answer was direct: "Nothing will happen," most of them said. "We won't pay any attention to it," some said. "If anybody wants it, let them take it," a few said. "But not me," many said. End of discussion.
So how is it, I pressed them, that they can be so blasé -- so actually disinterested -- about the situation when we, on the other hand, seem so intense about even the possibility of it? The answers to that one were even more interesting. Instead of discussing the pros and cons of a Latin Mass, they discussed the nature of their society. They cited four characteristics of the culture, which, they say, marks the nature of the church there.
First, Australia was founded to be a British penal colony, a settlement for convicts -- many of them Irish -- who had been exiled from Ireland for stealing bread during the famine or being part of an anti-English nationalism that simply refused to surrender to the rule of the Crown. Point: Australians do not take authority easily.
There is in them, they say, a natural independence, a skepticism, a suspicion, about the imposition of anything on anybody.
Americans, on the other hand, it occurred to me, were founded by Puritans, very authority-centered religious types. We take laws seriously. And more than that, we suspect anyone who doesn't.
Secondly, Australians are a laid-back group to begin with. Neuroticism is not their national charism.
Nothing seems to bother Australians much. They're casual about everything -- clothes, rules, work and church. "On a good day," they told me, "no more than 12 percent of the population would go to Mass for anything."
We, on the other hand, are a very church-going society. Even at our worst, an average of 35 percent of U.S. Catholics say they go to church on Sunday. Here, we center our lives around our churches. There they center the church around their lives.
In the third place, they told me, Australia defines itself as a secular state, a state not defined by any religious orientation -- Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Christian or anything else. Religion is not a matter for the state, as far as Australians are concerned. The purpose of the state is to assure the general welfare, not the religious ideals of any single religion. They would certainly be horrified at the thought of putting their flag in the sanctuary of their churches.
In the United States, though we were founded by Deists with no specific religion in mind and promising freedom to all of them, we are still in the throes of trying to determine the implications of that for us as a people. Are we a "Christian" state or a pluralistic state -- meaning based on no particular denominational moral view or devoted to maintaining Christian identity even in our civic institutions. And if so, what does that mean for legislation and legislators and churches here? Are they part of the political arena or not? Is it the function of churches to teach morality or is it the function of the state to promote Christian morals? And if so, what of all the other moral perspectives in such a society?
Finally, Australia is an Anglo-Saxon culture in the midst of an Asian world. It is made up of multi-cultural ethnic groups whose orientation is more devotional than dogmatic, as Pacific as it is Western, spiritual but largely non-doctrinal. As a result, the struggle for the legalization of religious principles seldom invades the federal arena. Moral guidelines they care about. Attempts by religious figures to influence party politics or to equate political decisions with denominational purity -- as in "If you don't vote this way, you should ask yourself if you are really Catholic" -- they do not appreciate.
In the United States, religious identity and its place in politics is a thread that runs through the history of this country like gold in rock. From the time of William Penn and his bold model of religious freedom, the struggle to enshrine one set of religious ideals or another in law has been a fierce one here. It has come to the point, in fact, that religion -- if single issue voting is really religion -- stalks politics here in every sermon, on every bumper sticker, as the most salient measure of every candidate. The way we vote, we say, has something to do with how religious we are.
No doubt about it: Australia and the United States are not the same kind of religious worlds.
From where I stand, then, the question has to be, how is it that we really are so much alike? Or better yet, which of us is really the most religious?
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Dom Is it possible: Is it
Dom Is it possible:
Is it possible for," The Healing To begin," when the same bishops are in conrtrol that are responsible for compounding the Cimes committed by pedidile priests?
Is it poosible, " when millions of dollars are being stolen from Sunday collections," and the hierarchy has set into motion security procedures for the parishes to follow, BUT, do not make it mandatory.
Can that be taken seriously by the parishes, when the US Council of bishop's stated, that the amount of money stolen from the Sunday collections is so small compared to the 6 plus billion taken in each year by the Church.
I have serious concerns as to what changes are necessary before ,"The Healing Begins,". But my one concern is, when will the bishops, still in power, that were involved in the crises, realize that until they die, go to jail, retire or get promoted to Rome, will the Healing really begin. Dom
Butterfly sweety Mother
Butterfly sweety Mother Teresa the quote I mention about her you said she was "Old and outdated"?
Butterfly how many people you know who don't struggle with their faith. NAME A DANG SINGLE PERSON WHO DOESN'T STRUGGLE WITH THE FAITH! Didn't think so? We all do. Mother Teresa suffered the "Dark Night of the Soul" like St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Liseux the Little Flower and St. Faustina of the Divine MErcy Chaplet.
Well I hope we All Catholics could be united and one. Tired of this Division but pray for unity someday!
All butterfly check out my New Video on YOutube called "Nothing in this World" Performed by Keke Wyatt. This song is relevent to what I said!
Also like to give a Big SHOUT OUT! TO Pope Benedict and Pope John PAul, Miss ya! from YOung Catholics of the World! Holla back at yo boy!
Also Like to Give shout outs to Sydney 2008 World YOuth Day! Sydney is going to Rock its the place! Check out Youtube "DARE YOU TO MOVE WYD 2008 SYDNEY PROMOTION VIDEO"
JPII Generation said
JPII Generation said "Butterfly sweety Mother Teresa the quote I mention about her you said she was "Old and outdated"?"
I never said that Mother Teresa was old and outdated. Where did you get that from?
You said, and I'll quote directly from your post: "Well I hope we All Catholics could be united and one. Tired of this Division but pray for unity someday!"
Division is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when weeds are crowding out and choking a fruitful crop. Jesus said that he came "not to bring peace, but division." Division is also a sign of new life and growth as for example in biology with the division of cells. Without such division there would be no new growth.
Division that is created by bearing false witness, however, is not a healthy division and is cause for great concern, especially when the division is used for the express purpose to be divisive for narrow purposes such as for personal or political gain.
"Just because you are
"Just because you are Young DO NOT BE AFRAID TO BE SAINTS OF THE TWENTY-First Century" -Pope John Paul II Message to World YOuth Day 2002 Toronto, Canada.
I know you are tired of me in this post but as a YOung Catholic I am just a sinner who will NEVER BE A SAINT but called to Holiness. I used to be a non Practicing Catholic but after meeting Pope JOHN PAul at WYD 2000 in ROme I had a MArvolous Conversion Experience! Its Like the HOly SPirit smack me! Like I said the other day VAtican II was misintrepreted by many Progressive Catholics blinded by their own agendas and failed to live a call to holilness, doesn't mean we have to be perfect but living a holy life now it doesn't mean I have the right to condemn them ore point out the failures.
If I am weak and tired I go to Jesus in Eucharistic Adoration for Strength! Vatican II was a call to HOLINESS in the Church, It didn't change anything but the way We Worship and our Ecumenical Dialogues. THE CHURCH IS NOT A DEMOCRACY IT NEVER HAS BEEN OR NEVER WILL! POPE John Paul and Pope Benedict were at the council too! I am a member of the NeoCatechuemanal Way and I go to the Tridentine MAss at a nearby parish. After so many years of Liturgical Abuses I want to find the Beauty of the Catholic Church. I also am Awed at the fact that Many lay Movements have started like the NeoCatechuemanl Way, OPus Dei, Communion and Liberation, Charismatic Renewal and Foccalores.
Virginia, and for all I will say the Rosary for you not because I am better but I am a Worst sinner that needs to pray to Jesus and Mary for Strength!
I also Want to Thank Pope John PAul and Pope Benedict for showing Me and other YOung Catholics "That we are SAINTS of the TWENTY FIRST CENTURY"!
See you all at World Youth Day in Sydney 2008! Pleas pray for me my Sister is joining the Domincan Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist in Ann Arbor, Michigan! They are one of the Fastest growing Religious Orders that still wear the Habit and their average age is 24! They are running out of rooms for them! About 20 women are postulants this fall at their covent! GOD is GOOD! THE CHURCH IS YOUNG THE CHURCH IS ALIVE!
The Church may have a lots of failings and many sinners but think about the Marvelous Saints who have lived for Christ!
COntrary to Many St. Catherine of Siena, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Therese the Little Flower were Doctors of the Church and Most Importantly the Blessed Mother!
Virginia, i think you miss
Virginia, i think you miss the whole point of Vatican II, Vatican II was a call of the LAity to Holiness and reaffirm Church Teachings. Why do you think Pope Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae in 1968 when so many people pressured the church to accept contraception. Also the COuncil did not ban the Tridentine MAss, I think many Progressive CAtholics misintrepreted the Council so they can fit it in their own agendas. Now I am not better then anybody but we got to try to live a life of holiness! Mother Teresa of Calcutta always told her sisters to look to Jesus at Eucharistic Adoration for Strenght. If we are blinded by our own agendas and yet forget to live a call to Holiness! Vatican II also had many Lay Movements like Neo-Catechumenal Way, Charismatic Renewal and the Communion and Liberation. The Holy SPirit is leading a New Pentecost!
Also I am looking forward towards WYD 2008 in Sydney
!
Dear Sr. Joan, As an
Dear Sr. Joan,
As an American Australian, and resident of Australia of 26 years, and a practicing Catholic and member of Women and the Australian Church (WATAC) while there, I found your article most interesting regarding the culture of Australia. I would like to add a few things:
Firstly in North America settlement by the English happened long before Australian settlement. Transportation was poor and time consuming to the mother country. Americans have a longer tradition of grass roots democracy as a survival necessity and believe so firmly in the benefits of democracy. Americans love to share opinions and discussions about issues. Australia, on the other hand, was begun as a penal colony in 1886 (I believe). The British had suffered their own "Vietnam" with the American Revolution. They seriously discouraged grass roots democracy in the early colony of Port Jackson. (Sydney). The Military and British government was more powerful. To the average citizen, compliance meant survival. As a result I believe Australians still are not comfortable with discussion of widely differing opinions and conflict. Nonetheless, underneath the skepticism of authority, especially by the Irish descendants is still a force of general opinion.
It needs to be noted that the Catholic Church in Australia is more conservative and authoritative, indeed traditionally "Irish" church than what we know in the United States. When I went there in 1975 I felt like I had gone back 20 years while in church and in the minds of my fellow Catholics.
George Pell, now Cardinal of Sydney, formerly Archbishop of Melbourne, has done his best to drag the church back to a more conservative, authoritarian church from the top down. I consider him a future Papal candidate (though I shudder at the thought!). It is because of these changes and those of the Vatican in recent decades that I have left the church. My gender is being frozen out of the decision making process of the church, so it therefore does not represent the Jesus that I know who loved, valued and appreciated women. If the Latin Mass takes off in Australia, it will
be for a minority who reflect the reactionary but vocal minority encouraged by church authorities such as Pell. The average Catholic Australian will shrug their shoulders in indifference. If they are involved in their parishes, they prefer concentrating on what they can know and have some power in - the parish level. However, underneath it all is a very deep resentment against the more conservative changes that have gone on in the wider church. Over 26 years I watched many
committed Catholics leave the church in disgust of the changes. As I put it "Vatican II opened the windows to fresh air of the faith. JP2 and Benedict have closed the windows, locked them, nailed them shut, boarded them over and are now plastering them over." It is easier to leave than to fight the hierarchy. I did too. That is more the Australian attitude among progressive-thinking Catholics. Peace with God is honestly, though unfortunately, sometimes found more easily out of the increasingly narrowing perspectives of today's Catholicism.
Virginia Hastings
I enjoyed your article,
I enjoyed your article, especially the opening which states:
"Perhaps one of the best ways to discover who we are as a culture is to go visit some other culture. The experience is an interesting one.
One of the most exciting parts of the excursion is the opportunity it gives us to discover the effects of history on us -- as a people, as a culture, even as a church."
As a 36 year old gay man who was raised in a Catholic household, I was wondering if the same words and same spirit could be applied to the cultures of the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) communities (those practicing Catholicism and/or those not) for non-gay Catholics who indeed want to learn, grow and discover by "visiting" another culture (a Catholic church which is open to people from the LGBT communities, for example)??
Just a thought. . .
We should define what "the
We should define what "the fringe" of Australian Catholics really means. Out of an identified 5 million Catholics in Australia, only 750,000 (15%) keep the Third Commandment of God: “Thou Shalt Keep Holy The Lord’s Day” and attend Mass on Sunday. This is the in-communion remnant which I was referring to, and a sizable proportion of these practicing Catholics identify with the faith of the Fathers, tradition and Rome. The other 4 million are the usual mixed bag of lapsed, dissenting or protestantized CINO (catholic in name only) or PACE (Pentecost, Ash Wednesday, Christmas, Easter) catholics whom Sr. Chittister is likely referring to in her editorial.
Practicing Catholics believe Jesus Christ left us the Church and her sacraments as transmitters of supernatural grace and the means of salvation so yes, we believe Jesus does care intensily about the most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as it has come to be though the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Is conserving the deposit of faith, our tradition and the sacraments more important than disease, starvation and war? Absolutely. If the Church disintegrates to subjectivism, the Mass and the sacraments dissappear. No sacraments means salvation and grace also disappear from the human realm, and the love, charity and justice which we all want for the world's poor and exploited becomes impossible. The Church is not an NGO with a mandate to save society-it is the means Jesus Christ left for each individual soul to reject the evil one, repent our sins, live a holy life and get to heaven. Peace, justice, the end of war and starvation for society is understood to be attainable only as an EFFECT of the salvation of individual souls.
You say "Traditions are a wonderful part of any culture/society - however they have an use-by-date when they no longer serve the good of humanity at large."
True enough, but we are talking about two entirely different things here: small "t" tradition vs. the capital "T" Tradition of the Church. The former means nothing to Catholics, the latter, everything. The difference?
small "t" tradition express something of a culture, like turkey at Thanksgiving, Fourth of July fireworks, birthday candles, throwing wedding rice etc. There are millions of such activities in the world's cultures–most of it is mere cultural window dressing or little customs which can be dropped without irreparably damaging the heritage from where it came.
Capital T Tradition (or Sacred Tradition) means something totally different. Tradition in this sense refers exclusively to the teaching authority of Catholic Church. A practicing Catholic believes that the "depositum fidei" or "deposit of faith" was communicated by Jesus Christ and originally bestowed on the Apostles with St. Peter at their head and now resides in the bishops with the Pope at their head. This teaching authority, called the Magisterium, teaches from Scripture and Tradition which is twofold.
(1) The Solemn or Extraordinary Magisterium is exercised in the formal declarations of the Pope or of the Councils of Bishops approved by the Pope.
(2) The Ordinary Magisterium is exercised by the Pope or bishops in their normal means of instructing the faithful - through word, writing, and action.
The Extraordinary Magisterium is always infallible when exercised. The Ordinary Magisterium may also be infallible when the Pope or bishops teach with moral unanimity.
In a nutshell, the Catholic Church claims for itself the right and authority to declare doctrines or articles of faith infallibly (without error) and that these points of doctrine are to be believed without doubt or question, at the risk of one's salvation. This oral Tradition is considered to be as binding upon Catholics. Like two sacred rivers flowing from heaven, the Bible and Sacred Tradition contain the the FULL revealed truth of God, and as such, do not have a "use by date."
The term "practicing
The term "practicing Catholic" seems to be a right wing designer "label" designed to describe only a certain type of Catholic who is like you, believes as you do, practices a blind sort of faith like you that never questions or doubts and is "forbidden" to question and doubt. The way many of us Catholics were taught and continue to be taught (lower case t)by its catechism teachers, (lower case t) it is no wonder to me that there is so much Doubt.
If that is what you are "practicing" as a Catholic, never to think or doubt or question, only to follow the "letter of the law of tradition", you cheat yourself of a closer relationship to God, will not grow in faith but be stuck in it like an ostrich with his head in the sand and be denying yourself the true salvation Jesus Christ suffered on the cross and died for, and are bearing false witness against Catholics who practice their faith for the glory of God, not for the glory of the Church and you deny the Holy Spirit in those unlike you.
You said: "In a nutshell, the Catholic Church claims for itself the right and authority to declare doctrines or articles of faith infallibly (without error) and that these points of doctrine are to be believed without doubt or question, at the risk of one's salvation."
As was recently revealed about the "doubts" of the great Mother Theresa who is in the process of being canonized a Saint of the Catholic Church, your statement above seems to already be outdated and has expired itself from any true Christian meaning.
Having doubts does not mean we risk "salvation." Having doubts is part of having faith or searching for God. When "the Catholic Church claims for itself the right and authority" it is being subjective and speaks for itself as does an employer does toward an employee in the corporate world, and not for the Holy Spirit, especially when as you say it is "without error."
The Catholic Church is not "without error." If it were, it would be God. The Catholic Church is not and never will be God and should not pass itself off as being God and superior to any other Church, for God is the "Authority." "Put no other gods before me" God said. And Jesus Christ said "call no one else your Father" and to call no one but Him their "Teacher" (with a capital T).
The Gospels are the Tradition that are "without error" and should be the Tradition (with a capital T) that a "practicing Catholic" or fellow practicing Christian should try to follow.
One of the many things I have learned about from the Gospels is that Jesus Christ spent a great deal of time questioning the Scribes and Pharisees. He not only doubted their faith in God and questioned them about it, He taught us through that example to doubt and question their authority.
Excellent comment,
Excellent comment, Butterfly. The Gospels have so many stories about Scribes, Pharisees, Hypocrites, and those who tried to "entrap" Jesus. It is a mystery to me why so many today don't "get" the obvious message, always going for "the letter of the Law" rather than its "Spirit". And people wonder WHY there are "divisions"! Perhaps, like Sister Joan said, there is a difference--I have tended to experience it as a "natures" issue, the difference, as we say in psychology, between a "rigid personality structure" (which involves black-and-white thinking, ducks-in-a-row,the inability to handle ambiguity, etc.) and a more relaxed ability to tolerate shades of gray and diversity. In any case, where does love appear to flourish more and judgment flee?
Starlight - Ditto "It is a
Starlight - Ditto "It is a mystery to me why so many today don't "get" the obvious message, always going for "the letter of the Law" rather than ts "Spirit". And people wonder WHY there are "divisions"!"
I couldn't have said it any better!
“Is conserving the deposit
“Is conserving the deposit of faith, our tradition and the sacraments more important than disease, starvation and war? Absolutely.”
I'm not sure what you are saying. It sounds as though you are putting "Form before Substance". The form the Church took, takes of evolves into will be of His making. However the Substance of his teachings will remain the same if we simply hear and understand it.
You should not feel too compelled to worry that the Church will disappear from this earth before mankind does. We know it will not because Jesus told us so and therefore we believe it. Likewise, we should believe in the other lessons of Our Lord, especially those he actually spoke: "The Our Father", the Beatitudes, his admonitions about our behavior toward others and self. It seems to me, his words of peace and love are far more important than the form we use to preach it.
As God, Jesus understands Latin and English. As man, I doubt He spoke either.
Lets us continue to try to comprehend and fulfill the words of Our Lords in the language that speaks to us.
... the greatest of these ...
Joan I missed your talk here
Joan
I missed your talk here in Sydney.
You say, at the end of your article. "Or better yet, which of us is really the most religious?" I used to work in the media here [ABC Religious Progs] and I remember a "Values" survey which was done here and in many other countries. It showed that many "religious" countries e.g. Spain, Eire, Italy were not very "spiritual". USA came out as very "up-front" religious. Australia came out as not very "religious" and especially anti-institutional religion. But very high on the spirituality index. While I was working, we did a TV series called "The Sunburnt Soul" which explored Australian spirituality. Your description is largely accurate. There are a large number of articles about Australian spirituality. Many of them resonate with our (even unconscious) relationship with the vast flat land we live in. And one spoke very movingly of our (European) "apprenticeship to the aboriginal connection to the land". Aboriginal spirituality is vertical (from this place - now), whereas European spirituality is horizontal, looking to an historical recorded past. We people of the Book can continue to learn a lot from a people of the "now".
Patrick from Oz
Joan I understand you were
Joan I understand you were also in New Zealand and yet there was no comment about the culture of the people here who are very much different again. I must say that like our Australian friends from over the water we to have also had the opportunity of attending a Mass in Latin if that was what we wanted and for the older generation Vatican 11 was such an enormous change for them. What they had been brought up to believe was swept from under their feet and maybe they find solace in the old ways and safe and secure. However here in New Zealand we also have the Mass in Maori, the language of this beautiful land and also in the various other cultures that have since migrated to this land. Our first Bishop was French. In this aspect and in many others we are very different to Australia and to you. We did not join the war in Iraq, we do not keep our refugees herded in isolated camps, we stood strong against the power of USA and Britain when in 1985 we became nucleur free. Yes, as you pointed out, we are in the bottom 7 regading our overseas funding and our females are still paid less but we are working on this one. A lot of our priests are in the first part of their religious life (as Richatd Rhor would say) but we smile on them indulgently as they really try to do their best and attend retreats and talks, like your one, to find out what the real Jesus is talking about. So come again to Aotearoa New Zealand and discover us. I loved you. Dolores
Ted, if the "LAtin MAss
Ted, if the "LAtin MAss was Mumbo Jumbo" then how come it produced Wonderful Saints? Now that is Fine if you didn't want to go to a LAtin MAss, but after 40 years of Bad Liturgical Abuses don't you think it is time to get back to the Eucharist?
Also the Latin Mass would be small yes, but I lived in France for two years as a International Student for the Franciscan University of Steubenville. The Traditional Latin Mass was well attended than the Novus Ordo Mass. I think 1000 attended the High Mass while onlyl 50 attended the Novus ORdo Mass.
Those attending the Traditional Mass were University Students and a group called "Young Professionals". Most of the Vocations in France are coming from Traditional Orders.
Also the Sex Abuse Scandal read Dave Hartline's New book Called "Tide is Turning to Catholicism"!
Viva Il Papa!
Have I gotten the gist of
Have I gotten the gist of this post correctly, that somehow the magic of the TLM produced all those "Wonderful Saints"? Whatever happened to the hard hard work of personal transformation? You know, the kind of work involved with in wrestling the 'demons within'. I'll grant you that frequent Mass attendance is a help in this work, but it doesn't need to be in Latin.
Wasn't it Mother Theresa who took her nuns out of the cloister because she said prayer didn't seem to be helping all that much and maybe they would be better off getting down and dirty with the people they were praying for? Isn't she a "wonderful saint"?
On the Mother Theresa point:
On the Mother Theresa point: I don't know if that quote is from her, in light of this quote:
"When the Sisters are exhausted, up to their eyes in work; when all seems to go awry, they spend an hour in prayer before the Blessed Sacrament. This practice has never failed to bear fruit: they experience peace and strength,"
~Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta
She attributed all the accomplishments of her sisters to the time spent in adoration.
I think those who are afraid
I think those who are afraid the latin mass's return to legality in the US are perhaps over-reacting. After reading Sr. Joan's observations on how Australian catholics view the latin mass, and talking with fellow catholics I know, I think the reaction here in the US and Canada will be much the same: Ho-hum, so what?
If it is a meanginful spiritual exercise for some people, by all means they should be allowed to celebrate their faith with the latin mass, but I myself can't imagine experiencing it as more than just a curiosity, perhaps to be tried once and then ignored. The Vatican II mass which we now have speaks so much more to my own spiritual needs; latin sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me, and a mass in latin will sound like mass in mumbo-jumbo; I think for most catholics in north america this will be the case.
And, from what i have read, this is the expectation of Benedict and others in the hierarchy; the joyful salivations of latin mass fanatics not withstanding.
Now can we please get on with the real issues facing the catholic church -- such as getting down to dealing with the underlying causes of the priestly sexual abuse scandal, and the contiuing lack of accountability on the part of bishops generally in so many areas of church?
TED BERTOT
Eastern Kentucky, USA
Yes Joan, Americans (from
Yes Joan, Americans (from the US) and Australians are different animals! As much as John Howard and others would like to think of us as ‘two peas in a pod’, the reality is that we do not share the same world view.
So what about the Latin Mass move? In Australia, whoever wanted to celebrate the old liturgy has always been able to as far as I know, so what’s new? I can’t see that hordes of new followers are going to mob Latin Mass centres because of Benedict’s letter.
The Latin Mass movement in Australia has always been a small fringe movement and I cannot see that changing. If I suggested that we regularly celebrate a Latin Mass in my home parish, people would look at me as if I had two heads.
Just to set the record straight about youth involvement. The greatest Church impact on youth in Australia has been from the more evangelical Catholic groups, not from the ‘Latin quarter’.
I guess we're known by the
I guess we're known by the company we keep. My Australian Catholic friends assure me that they're loving the Latin Mass-and recent developments down under are exciting indeed. The Pontifical Mass is held in Melbourne every year since 1992, and attracts more people on each occasion. Melbourne's Bishop Denis Hart and Archbishop Barry Hickey of Perth, regularily celebrate the Latin Mass and as of 2007 there are now traditional Mass centres in every capital city except Darwin. In Canberra-Goulburn, Archbishop Francis Carroll actually had to appoint a priest specifically responsible for Latin Mass to meet demand.
Significantly, on June 12th, Archbishop of Melbourne, Dr George Pell celebrated the traditional Latin Mass in his own newly refurbished cathedral, St Patrick's. The Votive Mass of the Blessed Sacrament attracted well over 1,000 people and involved more than 25 priests and altar servers. St Patrick's provided a magnificent setting for the beautiful sung liturgy which included Gregorian chant (quelle horreur!) and polyphony from a choir drawn from around Australia, under the direction of choirmaster, Mr Hugh Henry, and accompanied by organist Christopher Cook.The congregation at the Melbourne Mass was noteworthy for the large number of families with children. The typical Latin Mass community in Australia mirrors that of the overseas experience, with most of those attending far too young to be accused of "pre-Vatican II" sentimentalism. The truth is that the Latin Mass communities in Australia are seeing an influx of young people in their 20s and 30s, who come to the traditional Mass out of curiosity and then fall in love with it. The traditional Mass movement is also producing an extraordinary flowering of vocations. Just this year, seven young Australian men are training at the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter centre in Pennsylvania-a newly-created seminary to train priests to celebrate sacraments according to the traditional Roman rite. What's really significant is that five of those young men come from the one small community at Lewisham in Sydney- The Maternal Heart of Mary Chapel which has traditional Masses twice weekly.
Of course every Western country has their little groups of lukewarm cafeteria catholics and doubleknit dinosaurs (which is the mainstream media exclusively interviews) but the real face of the Australian renewal-the youth, the vocations, the energy, enthusiasm and love, is inexorably tied to Catholic tradition and the Latin mass. In their Catholic spirituality, America and Australia are like two peas in a pod and we have John Paul II and Benedict XVI to thank for it.
Hi Jolenecasa, I do not
Hi Jolenecasa,
I do not think your friends from 'down under' are totally honest with the info they have conveyed to you.
Certainly, there is a small fringe of Latin Mass enthusiasts down here and they are being catered for in a few parishes scattered around the country. I doubt the overwhelming majority of Catholics who regularly attend Mass - around 10-15%, would have a preference for the Latin Mass over the New Order Mass anyway.
That aside, I cannot understand the time, resources and energy that is going into this debate when all around us men, women and children are dying of disease, starvation or war. All to satisfy the unabated greed and selfisness that gives us in the developed world an extravagant lifestyle beyond even the wildest imaginations of the brothers and sisters we exploit.
Do you for one moment think that God or Jesus would give a hoot what language we use in our liturgy? Are these the significant priorities of Catholicism to which we should pay greatest attention?
Traditions are a wonderful part of any culture/society - however they have an use-by-date when they no longer serve the good of humanity at large.
'What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak'. -George Santayana, philosopher (1863-1952)
Ninja
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Dom: Wow awesome piece of
Dom: Wow awesome piece of article! Thanks for the insight dude!
Thanks yes I have to admit there are many scandals in Church but I don't think it also affects the CAtholic Church Church as well. I used to be in the Southern Baptist Convention me and my family converted to CAtholicism when I was about 13 years old that was about 7 years ago. But in the Baptist Church my friend was raped and molested by a Baptist PAstor who was married and had about 2 children. Kind of really sad, but I pray for him daily! He is my hero!
But as you said this does not downplay the trials in the CAtholic Church, PErsonanally as a YOung CAtholic I think the scandals in the Church STREGHTEN MY FAITH! I think to look at it a human lens. Hey we make mistakes and I can understand,. I don't understand some people in the Church when Young Catholics live to practice "ORthodox Catholicism" they ended up shooting them down or me down and tend to write negative comments like Dom and butterfly. Kind of sad but I say the Hail MAry for you guys!
But a the CAtholic FAith IS AWESOME! AFTER 2000 years of Scandals and trials we MADE IT YOU GUYS! There is this Gospel Song by Hezekiah Walker called "I'LL MAKE IT CUZ ITS OVER NOW! I'll posted up on YOutube.
But hey Keepin on Keepin on Guys its not easy! Also can't wait on September 14 on the Summorum Pontificum Implentation!
I'll posted up on Youtube as well and after the MAss me and my friends at the Dorm HOuse are throwing a Summorum Pontificum Party! AWESOME you GUYS!